Lets nerf WAR :D

[Argyle_Darkheart]

PLD and DRK are the ones that are on more or less equal footing

I disagree; DRK is significantly more potent than PLD in the current meta.

When one tank is way ahead of the other's its overpowered, it doesn't make the other two tanks underpowered.

Not as a rule, it doesn't. Let's say DRK and PLD did 33% of the DPS that WAR could do, but WAR is only pulling 300 DPS. By your logic, WAR is overpowered, even though they're all incredibly weak. One class being better than another doesn't prove, as a rule, that one or the other is over or underpowered. I understand that people use these terms loosely, but you're using it to justify nerfing WAR.

if PLD seemed poor in comparison to both, that'd be a different story

It is poor in comparison to both.

Frankly its all subjective.

Bullshit; you just can't (or won't) come up with any objective criteria to bolster your proposition.

I would go so far as to flip your argument over and say why SHOULD WAR be SO MUCH more powerful than the other tanks, OVERALL in both MT and OT DPS while being equal in mitigation/equal in utility?

I never said it should be. And, for the record, I don't think it should be. Again, what's in contention is whether or not WAR deserves to be nerfed; it's not the only solution to the problem of tank balance.

[Duelle]

The way WAR plays feels good, the way the abilities interact with each other feels good, the class has good flexibility in terms of damage vs. tanking, the class has good utility and the class can manage its resources well

Why would you want to change this? This should be the ideal that PLD/DRK design aspires to.

Damage and utility should not be the defining elements of tank classes, since that creates incongruities in performance that lead to scenarios not unlike what we're seeing right now. The metagame isn't the only source of the problem; how SE approached tank design is a part of it too.

This said, my own concern would be relative damage between tanks and DPS. That's why I'd be hesitant to buff PLD damage and simply would lower tank emphasis on DPS a bit while making all 3 perform close to each other numberswise. Gameplay choices are attached to this, since by design PLD, WAR and DRK are clearly not meant to be tanking outside of Grit/Defiance/Shield Oath, and I have a feeling part of the issue would go away if you somehow forced all three to full-time their tank stances when main tanking (if I recall, Defiance WAR was pulling slightly ahead of a Shield Oath PLD back in ARR).

The next item would be utility, which is rather sparse on WAR with the exception of how strong Storm's Path is (which I suspect is a reason for WAR being guaranteed a raid spot). This is where you need to homogenize a bit. Either make Halone and Delirium provide the same effect, or make Storm's Path a buff that only affects the WAR.

[MeeYow]

I disagree; DRK is significantly more potent than PLD in the current meta.



Not as a rule, it doesn't. Let's say DRK and PLD did 33% of the DPS that WAR could do, but WAR is only pulling 300 DPS. By your logic, WAR is overpowered, even though they're all incredibly weak. One class being better than another doesn't prove, as a rule, that one or the other is over or underpowered. I understand that people use these terms loosely, but you're using it to justify nerfing WAR.



It is poor in comparison to both.



Bullshit; you just can't (or won't) come up with any objective criteria to bolster your proposition.



I never said it should be. And, for the record, I don't think it should be. Again, what's in contention is whether or not WAR deserves to be nerfed; it's not the only solution to the problem of tank balance.

Without commenting on any of your conclusions I want to point out we also have DPS classes as a reference for whether or not tanks DPS is overpowered.

We aren't as much in a vacuum as you imply. There is an upper bound set by DPS classes which arguably WAR is violating, and a lower bound set by raid requirements which PLD is arguably violating in early weeks (the ones that matter).

It isn't easy to call exactly.

Point out for future quoters: Arguably means that the evidence provides basis for people to begin discussing something, nothing I have said is conclusive, I have had enough of being quoted out of context tonight >.>


Edit: Apology for Gooner in my previous post I derped. <insert rant here about unlike the rest of the forums i correct myself when I get something wrong>








EDIT FOR AIRSWIMMER BELOW AS I HIT DAILY POST CAP:



I put specifically that my post was an indicator and nothing certain and I don't think that came across properly.



What I am referring to is that around about the time people started doing 3.x raids, WAR dps looked threateningly close to DPS numbers, to the point concerns were raised by serious *DPS class* players, wheras PLD and DRK did not. It isn't beating DPS, but it looked like it was getting too close for comfort.

Again (i am typing this so it can be stripped out of quotes) this was a community opinion, if you want exact numbers the community has a database on raid DPS where you can see how close to actual DPS classes WAR parses with respect to DRK and PLD. I highly recommend taking a look if you have not, of course I don't know the link off the top of my head

Violating just means breaking its a journal habit and i have been writing too much tonight, sorry.

Night all, no more posts for Mee ._.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

snip

I love you. Sadly I don't work with as many people with exceptional vocabularies as I'd like too LOL. NOW LETS GET BACK TO THE DEBATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Argyle_Darkheart]

I want to point out we also have DPS classes as a reference for whether or not tanks DPS is overpowered.

Fair enough; use that objective criteria to prove the point (not necessarily saying that you have anything to prove). I originally came into this thread in order to ask for something like that.

It isn't easy to call exactly.

I agree; that's been my point this whole time.

[MeeYow]

Fair enough; use that objective criteria to prove the point. I originally came into this thread in order to ask for something like that.



I agree; that's been my point this whole time.

Then my friend, you are spot on, have a post like because I can't offer any more.

The story is the same for mitigation.

The important thing is to have some idea of the right direction to go in and make frequent small steps that way.

Changes are coming in 3.1

*Bursts into tears*

[ZothStormfury]

No PWN intended but...

Even a mainly PVE based game has 15+ pages of "Nerf this class" thread, try to imagine if this is a PVP based game...I say 150 pages!

Why can't we duel each other??!

[MeeYow]

No PWN intended but...

Even a mainly PVE based game has 15+ pages of "Nerf this class" thread, try to imagine if this is a PVP based game...I say 150 pages!

Why can't we duel each other??!

WAR is pretty strong in PvP but oh dear SMN make it stop.

[ZothStormfury]

WAR is pretty strong in PvP but oh dear SMN make it stop.

DEEEEAAAATTTHHH FLAAAARRREEE!!!!

[Airswimmer]

We aren't as much in a vacuum as you imply. There is an upper bound set by DPS classes which arguably WAR is violating, and a lower bound set by raid requirements which PLD is arguably violating in early weeks (the ones that matter).

Where are WARs "violating" the upper bound set by DPS, and if they are violating it how are DRKs not?