Lets nerf WAR :D

[Iagainsti]

Hmm. Well, if I had to, I'd probably nerf outgoing DPS and buff the healing modifier, and give the slashing debuff they bring to the other tanks, as well. So something like a 30% hit to skill potency and a 25% buff to the healing modifiers, so the amount of incoming healing would be about the same, just the damage going out would be lower. Combined with handing the slashing debuff out to other tanks, this could go a long way to making Warriors less essential to raid comp.

#DarkWarriordin

[Jpec07]

#DarkWarriordin

Except not really. There is much more to Warrior's playstyle and flavor that makes them unique without having to have the highest DPS by such a significant margin (10-15%? Okay, fine. 50%? Hell no). Combined with the fact that they are one of the only classes to bring the debuff that mostly only tanks rely on, and you've got a recipe for Warriors being necessary for group comp.

If it helps make you feel better, we can give Warriors the piercing debuff, so Dragoons are also less essential (and so MCH and BRD would rejoice and sing us wonderful songs).

[Tyrial]

Except not really. There is much more to Warrior's playstyle and flavor that makes them unique without having to have the highest DPS by such a significant margin (10-15%? Okay, fine. 50%? Hell no). Combined with the fact that they are one of the only classes to bring the debuff that mostly only tanks rely on, and you've got a recipe for Warriors being necessary for group comp.

If it helps make you feel better, we can give Warriors the piercing debuff, so Dragoons are also less essential (and so MCH and BRD would rejoice and sing us wonderful songs).

A play style that you know so much about at level 28 Marauder, right? Your DPS estimates are off quite a bit as well, if you're getting beat in DPS by a WAR and he's doing 50% more than you then you're doing something wrong.

[kensatsu]

Nerf the war or buff Drk/pld that is the question.
Actualy i think the war look like the finished tank. why Pld don't get only a force debuff and the dark only a intel debuff. why the pld don't have a mechanics to make him more interesting to play : the war have rage stacks, the dark have the dark arts.
Why the pld and dark get more punished than the war to swap stance.
and no war don't have 50% more dps than others tank if it's the case maybe your war is stacked with force and you not.
i think you should ask Buff, not the nerf.

[Jpec07]

A play style that you know so much about at level 28 Marauder, right? Your DPS estimates are off quite a bit as well, if you're getting beat in DPS by a WAR and he's doing 50% more than you then you're doing something wrong.

There's this thing called an "alt;" maybe you've heard of it...

[Tyrial]

There's this thing called an "alt;" maybe you've heard of it...

And having an "alt" makes what you've said any more credible? You don't nerf a job just to bring it in line with the rest of the jobs that perform that same role. You don't strip utility from one to make another feel better, you give the ones that are lacking something that will bring them up to par without making them a copy/paste of each other with different names and animations.

PLD doesn't need a DPS boost, it needs more utility and an enmity boost so it's able to use what it's already been given in Heavensward. Clemency needs to be altered so it's actually useful.

DRK is pretty solid even though it could use some tweaks (such as mitigation being reliant on RNG).

WAR doesn't need to be touched, it's in a good spot with what it's been given and is able to perform either role (MT or OT) to a high standard. The only reason it's a "requirement" is because people are still trying to push content at a lower gear level than what SE had intended for the instance to be run at. Everything a WAR brings to the table can be gained from other raid compositions. Tank DPS will be slightly lower, but in the hands of a skilled player it will still be competitive.

People are complaining that World Firsts didn't take a PLD but they're not looking at the fact that this was being done due to how undergeared they were at the time and honestly, most of the people who are complaining the hardest probably don't even touch Savage at all.

[Jpec07]

And having an "alt" makes what you've said any more credible?

No, but it does dismantle your assault on my credibility. But let's stop this invective side-bar before we get too far off topic.

You don't nerf a job just to bring it in line with the rest of the jobs that perform that same role.

Isn't that what the thread is about? Hypothetical nerfs to Warriors? It isn't happening (that we know of), so there's no need to get upset, it's just what I'd do with it.

You don't strip utility from one to make another feel better, you give the ones that are lacking something that will bring them up to par without making them a copy/paste of each other with different names and animations.

Who said anything about copy-paste? And who said anything about taking utility away? I said to give it to them, so they also have it.

<off-topic snip>

WAR doesn't need to be touched, it's in a good spot with what it's been given and is able to perform either role (MT or OT) to a high standard. The only reason it's a "requirement" is because people are still trying to push content at a lower gear level than what SE had intended for the instance to be run at. Everything a WAR brings to the table can be gained from other raid compositions. Tank DPS will be slightly lower, but in the hands of a skilled player it will still be competitive.

People are complaining that World Firsts didn't take a PLD but they're not looking at the fact that this was being done due to how undergeared they were at the time and honestly, most of the people who are complaining the hardest probably don't even touch Savage at all.

This is a hypothetical, devil's advocate thread. Just because we're entertaining the idea of WAR nerfs doesn't mean anyone posting here actually thinks they should be nerfed (though some of us probably do).

[Syzygian]

Reprisal should be changed to a 5/10 second 10% Damage with the same cooldown but does not need a parry to be activated. You could attach a manacost to it or even a Dark Arts effect like: Also reduce the target's Intelligence Stat by 10%. Stacks with Delirium and Dragon Kick.

Google the definition of the word "reprisal" and you'll learn why this idea and all others like it that want to make Reprisal a non-parry proc are moronic. Tired of seeing them.


As a lvl 60 DRK progressing in A3S, I can tell you that you use Reprisal in a fashion much more akin to Inner Beast than to Storm's Path.

-WAR builds Wrath and then hits IB in advance of a tank buster.
-DRK pops Dark Dance to proc and then hits Reprisal in advance of a tank buster or raid-wide nuke. It lasts longer and is raid wide at the expense of potency.

Reprisal is not Path, nor does it need to be. It is there as it is to make up for the fact that Delirium is magic only, and they have no other raid mitigation utility like PLD (in spite of the current raid tier rendering most of those utilities useless).

WAR has 100% uptime on -10% phys and mag
DRK has 100% uptime on -10% mag, and an additional 66% theoretical uptime on -10% phys and mag so -10 to 20% magical and -0 to 10% physical. Its more or less an equal amount of total mitigation on fights with a mix of physical and magical damage. And lets be honest, an overwhelming majority of raid-wide damage is not physical, so it doesn't even matter that much.

And again as a DRK in endgame content right now, I can tell you that regardless of your investment in your parry stat it is VERY easy to get a Reprisal when you want one. It simply requires planning. And if you're popping Dark Dance 20s in advance of a TB or raidwide nuke on any fight where a boss autoattacks with any degree of frequency, the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor to parry inside DDs duration, and get the Reprisal proc that you want. So an rng argument doesn't hold water.

Also its hilarious that this thread is turning into another buff PLD thread.
DRK does not need a buff. It is fine where it is. Every change I've seen people suggest for it is either nonsensical, based on a fundamental lack of understanding on how the job plays when maximized, or a subjective nitpick rather than an actual mechanical issue.

Hypothetical nerfs to Warriors? It isn't happening (that we know of), so there's no need to get upset

This is a hypothetical, devil's advocate thread. Just because we're entertaining the idea of WAR nerfs doesn't mean anyone posting here actually thinks they should be nerfed (though some of us probably do).

This guy gets it.

[FallenWings]

Except not really. There is much more to Warrior's playstyle and flavor that makes them unique without having to have the highest DPS by such a significant margin (10-15%? Okay, fine. 50%? Hell no). Combined with the fact that they are one of the only classes to bring the debuff that mostly only tanks rely on, and you've got a recipe for Warriors being necessary for group comp.

If it helps make you feel better, we can give Warriors the piercing debuff, so Dragoons are also less essential (and so MCH and BRD would rejoice and sing us wonderful songs).

For future reference, Ninjas also deal the Slashing damage type and bring Slash Resist Down through Dancing Edge. Storm's Eye is not unique. The only unique skills I can remember off the top of my head are Rage of Halone, Disembowel, half of Dragon Kick(Blunt Resist Down), Rain of Death, Trick Attack, Storm's Path and Reprisal(these latter two do not overwrite each other).

I think a better point for balancing Tank Damage rather than evening their personal DPS is to adjust their respective utilities or lack thereof that would further enable more DPS. We need only look at how the DPS balance is set up to take ideas, for example; Bards and MCH's have arguably the lowest Single Target yet enable Raid Wide DPS gain through their various support functions. Ninja's have the lowest DPS against the Melees yet are balanced with the fact that they have Trick Attack, Dancing Edge, Goad, Shadeshift and Smokescreen.

I'd like the idea of PLD having excess mitigation which allows more DPS from healers that would make up for the difference that a WAR or DRK provides, but the way healer DPS works right now, that isn't plausible.

For those arguing about WAR's supposively 'violation' of the DPS upperband or whatever you want to call it.

Good WARs can only out damage bad-mediocre DPS players.

It's everyone's responsibility to contribute to the main goal of any fight and that is Kill X Boss. So the idea of "DPS is only for the DPS to worry about" is simply a narrow minded and rather selfish thought process. It's a team game, we all work together to win.




Edit+: Some ideas for tweaking came to mind.

Sheltron should be changed to a 3 second Duration mitigate 20% damage rather than a Shield Block. Does not activate for Auto Attacks. This would give PLD's a nice overall mitigation boost in both physical and magical.

The reasoning for removal of Shield Block is that Blocks and Parry can be bypassed through a crit and do not have that benefit of having the extra block/parry layer.
Take the Warrior skill FreeWrath/Abando- er.. Raw Intuition for example, people like to claim it as a purely "Phys only Rampart" that only works on the front but it also has another draw back being that it cannot further benefit from random parries/blocks like how Rampart and Shadow Skin would.

Reprisal should be changed to a 5/10 second 10% Damage with the same cooldown but does not need a parry to be activated. You could attach a manacost to it or even a Dark Arts effect like: Also reduce the target's Intelligence Stat by 10%. Stacks with Delirium and Dragon Kick.