Lets nerf WAR :D

[Duelle]

The way WAR plays feels good, the way the abilities interact with each other feels good, the class has good flexibility in terms of damage vs. tanking, the class has good utility and the class can manage its resources well

Why would you want to change this? This should be the ideal that PLD/DRK design aspires to.

Damage and utility should not be the defining elements of tank classes, since that creates incongruities in performance that lead to scenarios not unlike what we're seeing right now. The metagame isn't the only source of the problem; how SE approached tank design is a part of it too.

This said, my own concern would be relative damage between tanks and DPS. That's why I'd be hesitant to buff PLD damage and simply would lower tank emphasis on DPS a bit while making all 3 perform close to each other numberswise. Gameplay choices are attached to this, since by design PLD, WAR and DRK are clearly not meant to be tanking outside of Grit/Defiance/Shield Oath, and I have a feeling part of the issue would go away if you somehow forced all three to full-time their tank stances when main tanking (if I recall, Defiance WAR was pulling slightly ahead of a Shield Oath PLD back in ARR).

The next item would be utility, which is rather sparse on WAR with the exception of how strong Storm's Path is (which I suspect is a reason for WAR being guaranteed a raid spot). This is where you need to homogenize a bit. Either make Halone and Delirium provide the same effect, or make Storm's Path a buff that only affects the WAR.

[Giantbane]

Damage and utility should not be the defining elements of tank classes, since that creates incongruities in performance that lead to scenarios not unlike what we're seeing right now. The metagame isn't the only source of the problem; how SE approached tank design is a part of it too.

This said, my own concern would be relative damage between tanks and DPS. That's why I'd be hesitant to buff PLD damage and simply would lower tank emphasis on DPS a bit while making all 3 perform close to each other numberswise. Gameplay choices are attached to this, since by design PLD, WAR and DRK are clearly not meant to be tanking outside of Grit/Defiance/Shield Oath, and I have a feeling part of the issue would go away if you somehow forced all three to full-time their tank stances when main tanking (if I recall, Defiance WAR was pulling slightly ahead of a Shield Oath PLD back in ARR).

The next item would be utility, which is rather sparse on WAR with the exception of how strong Storm's Path is (which I suspect is a reason for WAR being guaranteed a raid spot). This is where you need to homogenize a bit. Either make Halone and Delirium provide the same effect, or make Storm's Path a buff that only affects the WAR.

I disagree. Sitting around in tank stance is boring and requires no thought or skill. Stance dancing means more interesting gameplay for both the tank and the healers.

It also isn't required unless you're in savage. Everything else you can sit in tank stance all day, or stance dance as you see fit.

It's fine to have differences in damage and utility. But the WAR clearly brings the best of both right now which is the problem. Particularly for the PLD who is way behind in Utility, AoE DPS, shield oath DPS, threat generation and TP management.

[Duelle]

I disagree. Sitting around in tank stance is boring and requires no thought or skill. Stance dancing means more interesting gameplay for both the tank and the healers.

I don't see anything interesting or skillful in having an extra button to push. Your argument would have worked with vanilla WoW warriors because they had actual utility locked behind stances (our interrupt could only be used in Berserker Stance, our fear break/immunity could only be used in Berserker Stance, our stun could only be used in Defensive Stance), and even then it was clunky design that limited gameplay in certain situations (fear break macros were very unreliable, for example).

Also consider that forcing PLD, DRK and WAR to full-time Shield Oath/Grit/Defiance while main tanking helps keep MT DPS on a leash. It'd also be a step in relieving tank DPS from the duty of carrying groups to clears for DPS checks (since that's supposed to be the DPS' responsibility, not the tank's). You'd also be eliminating a factor to balance encounters around since it'd create a specific margin of expected damage from the main tank. Quite a few positives just from nipping that problem in the bud.

It also isn't required unless you're in savage.

And as I've repeatedly said, this shit rolls downhill. It won't surprise me to eventually see people in DF runs giving tanks crap for sticking to their tank stances instead of switching like the "pros" do. This is the same playerbase that fostered WARs in 2.0 that would tell me to MT because "lol war cant tank" HM Garuda.

[Giantbane]

I don't see anything interesting or skillful in having an extra button to push.

It's because you need to know when it's safe to DPS. You need to manage threat better without the threat modifier of tank stance. You need to be more thoughtful about how you use your mitigation abilities to push how long you can stay out of tank stance to DPS. And your healer needs to be able to handle the additional damage you'll be taking.

These all combine to be more interesting than just sitting in tank stance.

And as I've repeatedly said, this shit rolls downhill. It won't surprise me to eventually see people in DF runs giving tanks crap for sticking to their tank stances instead of switching like the "pros" do. This is the same playerbase that fostered WARs in 2.0 that would tell me to MT because "lol war cant tank" HM Garuda.

This isn't the same thing exactly. PLD was better at just about everything lvl 50+ in 2.0. At fresh 50, PLD was better at speed runs since they could survive getting beat on by more stuff, and it was easier for them to use the suicide run to skip packs in AK speed runs. PLD was very heavily preferred as OT in Ifrit since it had a better stun for that fight. PLD was vastly better than 2.0 WAR vs. titan (*unless the WAR knew what he was doing and had good gear). Sure some WARs could still do all this, and even match a PLD with gear and/or a really good healer. But this wasn't just perceptions coming out of coil that were effecting WAR. For a lot of lvl 50+ content, PLD just made things easier, and that perception permeated the entire end game until the 2.1 WAR changes.

In a certain sense, this is already happening in 3.0 to a lesser degree. When I decide to DF EX roulette as DPS or heals, I'm always a little disappointed when I get PLD or I get tanks wearing all VIT (i180+ in all VIT). I know the run is going to go slower as a result. I keep it all to myself, but I'm still thinking it.

[Duelle]

@Giantbane: I'll agree to disagree. It smells too much of "how much I can get away with before I get caught/die" for my liking.

In a certain sense, this is already happening in 3.0 to a lesser degree. When I decide to DF EX roulette as DPS or heals, I'm always a little disappointed when I get PLD or I get tanks wearing all VIT (i180+ in all VIT). I know the run is going to go slower as a result. I keep it all to myself, but I'm still thinking it.

When it fully comes to fruition, I guess some of us will have to learn to live with being the villain. >.>