Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[Freyyy]

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This guy is one of the few forum posters that seem to actually know what they're talking about. I like you Mr. Exodus_Kenpachi.

[Anthius]

Tanks have 3 areas in which they contribute:

Raid damage mitigation
Raid DPS increase
Personal DPS

Right now we have two tanks that can place a check mark in all three categories and one tank which doesn't have any. The issue is not WAR/DrK it is PLD

Maybe I'm missing something here but how does DRK contribute to Raid DPS aside from it's Personal DPS?

But bringing up Raid DPS is a good point. If all 3 tanks end up contributing an equal amount of raid DPS even if it isn't just their personal DPS.

Maybe give the Paladians something that can proc while they're tanking that can give some sort of inspiration buff and buff party members damage by X amount for Y time on Z cooldown. and set the numbers somewhere so they're bringing an effective amount of raid dps that the other tanks bring. Then you have the paladins not dragging the raid back because their personal DPS is lower than the others.

[Reynhart]

Secondly your argument is that becuase WAR brings a meaningful contribution to the raid group via DPS and utility and PLD does not it needs to be nerfed, which is wrong.

No, it's more complicated than that.

Here's the reasoning.
First, for a proper balance, every setup should provide around the same DPS. Note that I'm talking about overall DPS, not on a job vs job basis.
NB : If you don't agree with that, don't bother you can stop reading now, since it means you're fine with the current inbalance.

Since PLD (Let's put DRK away for now) does less DPS than WAR (Which, I'm perfectly fine with, and I really hope SE will find a way to adjust PLD without focusing on DPS), it needs to help others do more DPS, so that the party is doing as much as with a WAR.
He could increase physical DPS damage :
MNK ? Even with a blunt debuff, it wouldn't change anything, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense.
BRD and MCH ? Doesn't make a lot of sense too to have a piercing debuff for a slashing job.
NIN ? It would require a slashing debuff, but it's part of the WAR toolkit and since its purpose it too increase WAR's DPS, it fits with the design.
After that, we have BLM and SMN...a requiem-like debuff, It could be, even though it wouldn't make a lot of sense too (Or maybe a kind of "Holy Judgment", who know...)
That leaves...Healers. It would be strange to directly increase their DPS, but, it could allow them to heal less, so that they can DPS more.

And to allow them to heal less, you need to be more durable. And you need to also be significantly more durable than WAR, so that healers would have to heal a WAR more, thus DPS less.
So, you either increase PLD's durability, or reduce WAR's.
The thing is I feel like increasing PLD's durability would probably make it too durable. To the point where he wouldn't need a dedicated healer, which could create massive issues depending on content.
So, if we keep PLD's durability as it is...we'll have to reduce WAR's. Its DPS and raid utility wouldn't be altered, but he would require significantly more healing than PLD, balancing its upper DPS output by reducing the healer's.

My suggestion would be to remove the mitigation from Inner Beast and replacing it by an increase in max HP, by keeping the healing part, but convert any overheal into max HP.
It wouldn't prevent WAR for Main Tanking any content, but would force healers to focus much more on healing.

And as an OT, PLD would also provide additionnal mitigation, with Cover and Divine Veil, allowing healers to DPS more. I'd put Clemency out of GCD, so that the PLD wouldn't have to reduce its DPS to cast it, since the idea is that, by casting it, it would allow healers to do more DPS...
I'd also like a change on Sheltron to block the next attack "in front of you", so you could block hits meant for the MT, by standing next to him, thus, mitigating more.

[shao32]

We have three Tanks.
Square Enix want every Tank to be able to Main Tank the Content but that can only work, if all Tanks does close to the same Damage, too.
You can no design a Tank around Mitigation and give him less DMG, if the Mitigation of the other Tanks is enough to tank every Encounter in the Game. Because then, the more Mitigation of the Paladin becomes useless and in a Raid Enviorment around massive DPS checks, Tanks with the most DPS becomes mandatory, which was the result in WAR/DRK Tanks in Alex Savage and leaving out the PLD if possible.

thats right, SE say PLD is the mitigation king, DRK is the most magical defensive tank, and WAR the dps tank, what happen? all tanks can mitigate every boss, DRK have more problems in phisical and in future conten whe see that a problem, paladin have a awesome phisical kit with the cost of dps, the meta kill the paladin, and whe have the WAR the dps tank how can mitigate like a paladin, change stance with zero cost and, yeah a tank how is pretty ballance himsel, best mitigation to al type of damage, best ot dps and best burst.

what happen? is easy every pach war still can mitigate the same like a paladin paladins go to be the worst tank to choose, buff paladin mitigation can be a solution but thats mean buff drk mitigation too because war is to par with drk in mitigation too, so a good balance is:

paladin: lowest dps but the most high mitigation tank.
dark knight: best magical mitigation, and good dps, and a little low phisical mitigation tools like now.
warrior: the high ot dps, best utility tank (storm path, eye) but the lowest defensive tank, enough to dealt the conten but not enough to be equal to drk and pld.

this is the ideal balance if SE whan the jobs stay in the lore, the other way is make the drk and pld in the same lvl of dps and mitigation and thats dont solve anithing, whe want diferent jobs to play no the same class with diferent skin.

[Yonanja]

They can't balance the tanks around PLD being the one with the best mitigation and WAR having highest DPS, with DRK somewhere in the middle. It sounds good on paper, but in reality, PLD will still be the last choice for any group, since the other two tank still have to be able to survive the content and they do higher damage and gives better raidwide effects. The only way to make PLD mitigation actually matter would be to increase it so much that either it being next to immortal or the other two classes not being able to survive encounters.

They could have the current system of the tanks having about the same survivability, if they balanced things around something else. Maybe they could do something with how the agro works in the game? Cause right now, it's almost a joke how easy it is to maintain and hold agro on mobs, not to mention bosses. If they made threatgeneration actually matter, they could balance the classes around this, having WAR still being highest DPS but causing lower hate than the other classes, with PLD doing the lowest damage but causing the highest hate. If they mate hate matter, then the amount of hate a tank generates would limit the output of the dpses, moving the focus for tank away from trying to do the highest dps, to more "tanky" activities. This would also allow tanks to dps if they're good enough to generate high enough threat to make it safe to do so, or when running with dpses who are less geared than them. But in my opinion, a tank who runs with about equaly geared dps, should have the focus of maintaining agro. Would give dpses something else to think about as well except "Rotation, rotation, rotation" when they need to keep an eye on how much threat the tank has and adapt their output to this.

Also inbefore "DPS = Threat"... Rage of Halone and Flash says hi ^_^

[Reynhart]

It sounds good on paper, but in reality, PLD will still be the last choice for any group, since the other two tank still have to be able to survive the content and they do higher damage and gives better raidwide effects.

No, it's not that simple. Tanks don't just "survive" through content. They're healed. And the amount of healing required can vary greatly.
And whenever a healer uses a GCD to heal, he doesn't use it to do damage.

Problem is, the lowest mitigation tank already allows healers to do a fair DPS.

If they mate hate matter, then the amount of hate a tank generates would limit the output of the dpses, moving the focus for tank away from trying to do the highest dps, to more "tanky" activities.

Actually, I thought about that back when they first announced that WS wouldn't have a cooldown. People complained that the game would be too easy because you'd only have to spam your WS all the time. And I was sure that, by spamming mindlessly, you would just steal aggro and get your ass kicked. It would have made enmity a team mechanic, where DPS and healers need to monitor their skills to not steal enmity, while the tank do everything he can to give them more leeway.
Saddly, enmity is far to easy to maintain...

[shao32]

im not a dev and i dont know what is the best choice to balance the tanks, but 1 think im sure is refuse to nerf a war for a balance between 3 jobs more when ppl say war is in the best position in all fields of the tank job is very selfish and unrealistic.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

im not a dev and i dont know what is the best choice to balance the tanks, but 1 think im sure is refuse to nerf a war for a balance between 3 jobs more when ppl say war is in the best position in all fields of the tank job is very selfish and unrealistic.

What.....?

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

No, it's not that simple. Tanks don't just "survive" through content. They're healed. And the amount of healing required can vary greatly.
And whenever a healer uses a GCD to heal, he doesn't use it to do damage.

Problem is, the lowest mitigation tank already allows healers to do a fair DPS.

This goes more to the encounter than the tank. It seems like you want more constant damage, more passive mitigation, and less burst healing... Which goes against the very design SE has implemented in pretty much every fight ever.

You also seem to be forgeting that there are two healers and that the majority of the time there is one healer healing and one DPSing. The sheer amount of mitigation it would take for PLD to have to completely negate a healer would be immense. Not to mention that you would then need to seriously buff WAR amd DrK DPS becuase a good SCH with a BRD can put out about 900 sustained DPS....

[Reynhart]

This goes more to the encounter than the tank. It seems like you want more constant damage, more passive mitigation, and less burst healing... Which goes against the very design SE has implemented in pretty much every fight ever.

Burst healing is exactly when PLD could really help with healing with (a little better) Clemency.

Yes, maybe you can buff PLD to reduce the burden on healers without being too sturdy...but you'd have to change the whole mentality that will blindly keep rejecting PLD because they can do just fine. To force them to experiment, you have to put real obstacles to their comfort zone.