Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[Habien]

DRK still runs out of TP eventually, though it takes a long time like the other Disciples of War except Paladin.

No, DRK runs out just as fast as paladin. The buff to blood weapon was to ensure they didn't run out faster than PLD when using it due to the attack speed buff. DRK and PLD are in the same spot in regards to tp issues.

[MeeYow]

Testing dummies at typical gear for this patch has PLDs running out at about 2:30 whilst DRKs last 3:10, I believe mostly due to the applications of scourge in that time saving TP.

Also as OT DRK can use unmend to get about 50tp back but PLD has no way of doing damage in a GCD whilst restoring TP. Also clemency is currently close to useless.

Also in terms of potency lost in that GCD with reference to TP gained, Unmend lets 40 more TP restore at the cost of only 60 potency which makes it a vastly better TP return to dps loss skill (in the region of 5x more efficient) with the added detriment of small MP loss.

From a pure TP standpoint DRK MT and OT is better off than PLD by a fair margin, it could however get a few more tools without being unreasonable. DRK is the closest tank to being in the right place, with consistently viable restoring options in MT and OT positions, PLD needs a buff to swipe and a QoL style fix to Clemency.

WAR TP management is OP and needs a change, infinite single target TP is obviously OP and in multiple mob scenarios WAR was already far more capable of AoE tanking than PLD in 2.x with steel cyclone and a well chosen number of overwhelms (and a couple flashes as backup). The current justification for it is so WAR can AoE without cyclone or completely in its DPS stance and hold hate - or if not tanking, to make sure it out AoE DPSs DRK by its current margin. None of these things seem like requirements to me and if a skill is so powerful it is making skills as good as steel cyclone redundant, it needs looking at. Between equilibrium and stack WS, WAR TP management is too easy/forgiving.

There are multiple things that can be done to WAR, no more than ONE of:
- Make equilibrium always be the heal, WAR still has awesome TP management from stack abilities.
- Make stack abilities also have a 60tp cost, leaving WAR still better off than the other two jobs but by requiring eventual TP maintenance.
- Add a TP cost to stance dancing.

One of these combined with decent PLD options would make tanks need paeon or a break at roughly the same point in the fight, ideally at the same time as most DPS.

Ref on AoE DPS: WAR is 20% ahead of DRK, 80% on PLD
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#b...nks&dataset=80

[Calypsx]

I'm glad Yoshi P doesn't make the balance decisions.

[Duelle]

Just to throw this out there, something I've been thinking about is the respective tank debuffs. I realize they're supposed to create synergy between WAR, PLD and DRK, but with Storm's Path being superior to both Halone and Delirium, I'd either normalize the three debuffs (make all three decrease target damage by 10%) or change Storm's Path to decrease damage taken by only the WAR by 10%. Assuming we go with the former, we would also get rid of the INT debuff on Dragon Kick (to not suddenly force MNKs into every raid again) and change Reprisal (45s cooldown, no parry requirement, applies INT and STR debuff on the target for 15s).

Once that is done, utility is sort of clear cut. Assuming the former, PLD would have Divine Veil, DRK would have Reprisal. Both of which would have low enough uptime that I'd think it wouldn't make them superior to WAR if left as is. If, for some reason, PLD and DRK outweigh WAR because they have Divine Veil and Reprisal, then add the following to Inner Beast (additional effect: target fixates on you, dealing 10% less damage to other party members for 6s while still dealing full damage to you).

[Teiren]

Sure... If I only burn my entire TP load spamming Rage of Halone combo as MT, like ARR, I wouldn't worry DPS or Healers to catch up on threat. But since PLDs are now given weapon skills that does not have increased enmity slapped into them, we, at the very least, be given the resources to actually use it without worrying that we will run out of TP for our enmity combo.

Er sorry, maybe I was being confusing? Rage of Halone combo is just as much TP as the other combos, and I agree with you. I meant to say that I disagree completely with the current TP design for all Jobs and that it hurts Paladin the most because of no TP Regeneration/Reduction action.

There's no real TP management outside of limiting AoE. TP is simply: Use until empty, then have your DPS cut in half or worse. However, for a situation like Ravana Extreme where you know you absolutely do not want to run out of TP during Scorpion Avatar, that's different. That is an interesting choice to save TP if you're low, but situations like that are the exception by far. I would certainly like to see a lot more fights like Ravana.

No, DRK runs out just as fast as paladin. The buff to blood weapon was to ensure they didn't run out faster than PLD when using it due to the attack speed buff. DRK and PLD are in the same spot in regards to tp issues.

If you never drop Grit, that's true, but with Blood Weapon if you're using TP 10% more often while using 20% less TP, is that not a net gain? Maybe I'm missing something.

[rawker]

Er sorry, maybe I was being confusing? Rage of Halone combo is just as much TP as the other combos, and I agree with you. I meant to say that I disagree completely with the current TP design for all Jobs and that it hurts Paladin the most because of no TP Regeneration/Reduction action.

There's no real TP management outside of limiting AoE. TP is simply: Use until empty, then have your DPS cut in half or worse. However, for a situation like Ravana Extreme where you know you absolutely do not want to run out of TP during Scorpion Avatar, that's different. That is an interesting choice to save TP if you're low, but situations like that are the exception by far. I would certainly like to see a lot more fights like Ravana.

No. Not confusing at all. If we will factor in the amount of threat generated per TP will be lower by a great amount if we use nothing but Halone Combo versus maximizing our DPS in which the other 2 tanks is a non-issue. To that we both agree.

I just can't understand why WAR and DRK have multiple AoEs that generate extra enmity while PLDs can't have that perk. WARs can even cross Flash if ever they run out of TP(some people do) so it's easier to face pull trash.

[Theodric]

Flash doing AoE damage would help quite a bit. It'll be interesting to see what sort of adjustments are made to ensure that our damage is more in line with WAR and DRK.

[Shurrikhan]

Just to throw this out there, something I've been thinking about is the respective tank debuffs. I realize they're supposed to create synergy between WAR, PLD and DRK, but with Storm's Path being superior to both Halone and Delirium, I'd either normalize the three debuffs (make all three decrease target damage by 10%) or change Storm's Path to decrease damage taken by only the WAR by 10%. Assuming we go with the former, we would also get rid of the INT debuff on Dragon Kick (to not suddenly force MNKs into every raid again) and change Reprisal (45s cooldown, no parry requirement, applies INT and STR debuff on the target for 15s).

Once that is done, utility is sort of clear cut. Assuming the former, PLD would have Divine Veil, DRK would have Reprisal. Both of which would have low enough uptime that I'd think it wouldn't make them superior to WAR if left as is. If, for some reason, PLD and DRK outweigh WAR because they have Divine Veil and Reprisal, then add the following to Inner Beast (additional effect: target fixates on you, dealing 10% less damage to other party members for 6s while still dealing full damage to you).

Seems like a good plan of action for dealing with utility concerns quickly and simply, though I'd personally find that Inner Beast re-balance rather awkward, and quite likely further (over)empowering. We can pop up to 4 of those per minute with 15% skill speed... How would Divine Veil or Reprisal possibly compete with that? Not to mention that they get an extra half-CD Provoke? That being said, I think Warrior in its current state (not that I'm particular happy with its current dps balance against the other two tanks) can keep its viability just fine without providing any bonus raid utility, so it should be alright without that change.

Barring all that... to be honest, just having Storm's Path sap just the greater of Int or Str stats, stacking with DK/Del/RoH, or dropping the percentile to 8% would probably bring it in line with the other two on average (just, sadly, with fight-specific niches and weaknesses as in A4 - which is why I'd prefer your idea, or larger revisions entirely).

[Duelle]

Seems like a good plan of action for dealing with utility concerns quickly and simply, though I'd personally find that Inner Beast re-balance rather awkward, and quite likely further (over)empowering. We can pop up to 4 of those per minute with 15% skill speed... How would Divine Veil or Reprisal possibly compete with that? Not to mention that they get an extra half-CD Provoke?

The wording is a bit deceptive (the "fixates on you" part is more for flavor rather than indicative of what the effect actually does), but I was simply copying how taunts worked in Warhammer Online. Basically, the taunts tanks had for PvE would be used in PvP by taunting an enemy player, reducing the damage dealt by that enemy player to anything other than the tank that taunted them.

If putting it on Inner Beast is too much, it might work if put on Vengeance (additional effect: target deals 5% less damage to targets other than you for 15s), Holmgang (additional effect: target deals 10% less damage to targets other than you for 6s), or Fel Cleave (reduce the potency to 400 to balance it out). If that doesn't work, there's always Rallying Cry, but that'd require adding a new ability or changing Thrill of Battle to work like it.

[Shurrikhan]

The wording is a bit deceptive (the "fixates on you" part is more for flavor rather than indicative of what the effect actually does), but I was simply copying how taunts worked in Warhammer Online. Basically, the taunts tanks had for PvE would be used in PvP by taunting an enemy player, reducing the damage dealt by that enemy player to anything other than the tank that taunted them.

If putting it on Inner Beast is too much, it might work if put on Vengeance (additional effect: target deals 5% less damage to targets other than you for 15s), Holmgang (additional effect: target deals 10% less damage to targets other than you for 6s), or Fel Cleave (reduce the potency to 400 to balance it out). If that doesn't work, there's always Rallying Cry, but that'd require adding a new ability or changing Thrill of Battle to work like it.

Ahh, like Obsess in 1.0... sorta.

Honestly, either Holmgang or especially Thrill of Battle seem like they'd be about perfect if WAR really did need to take back some raid utility for its balance. I don't especially like the idea of it having the same CD as Divine Veil, with even faster activation, but that's just a trifle. Rallying Cry would be especially nice in that it'd be par for the course for WAR, and wouldn't be any more immediate or powerful than Divine Veil. Being able to make Thrill of Battle multi-stage, where, after applying the original CD effect, you can cut its effect to 75% or 50% while making raidwide, would probably work pretty well.

To be honest, the whole 'fixate' concept and how it might apply itself to raid mitigation kind of just makes me wish there was more to the undermechanics of tanking, and to enemy AI, than there is currently.