Are MNKs still desired?

[MrCookTM]

If you average the top 5 submissions -93.56 for a1s, and -107.66 for a3s in favor of monk



IIRC Trick Attack is about a 1% dps increase overall. If mnk does 100 more dps than the nin you'd have to have 10,000 raid dps for TA to catch up. Of course TA's contribution is situational, on a burn phase it helps more than 1%.

So, to the OP, yes MNK should very much be desired

EDIT: I redid the math and it's 1.6% increase if I did that right. Need 6250 raid dps for it to "equal" 100 extra monk dps. And really that's with perfect TA uptime, which is likely not going to happen in most environments.

It is more around the 2% range. If it was a flat 10% increase every minutenit would be 1,67%, a small delay sometimes doesn't matter as long as you get the same amount of TA's off in a fight. What makes it more than 1,67% is the fact that players sync their cooldowns with TA, let alone the opener.

[Dante_V]

Yes they are still desired. Especially if there is no drk present.

[whiskeybravo]

It is more around the 2% range. If it was a flat 10% increase every minutenit would be 1,67%, a small delay sometimes doesn't matter as long as you get the same amount of TA's off in a fight. What makes it more than 1,67% is the fact that players sync their cooldowns with TA, let alone the opener.

It's can't be more than 1.67%, it's a 10% buff with 16% uptime, it can't ever exceed that. Any time it's delayed reduces it's effectiveness as that translates to decreased uptime. All I'm saying is it's very unlikely to be up every 60 sec without fail, so the effective dps increase is less than 1.67% overall.

As for syncing CDs. I understand the concept of synergy, however, I just don't see how it can possible increase more than 10% since that's exactly what it says it does. Like, if I pop B4B and have a TA, that's 30% + 10%, it doesn't magically become 42% because they are executed at the same time.

[MrCookTM]

It's can't be more than 1.67%, it's a 10% buff with 16% uptime, it can't ever exceed that. Any time it's delayed reduces it's effectiveness as that translates to decreased uptime. All I'm saying is it's very unlikely to be up every 60 sec without fail, so the effective dps increase is less than 1.67% overall.

As for syncing CDs. I understand the concept of synergy, however, I just don't see how it can possible increase more than 10% since that's exactly what it says it does. Like, if I pop B4B and have a TA, that's 30% + 10%, it doesn't magically become 42% because they are executed at the same time.

Let's use example numbers here. If your Raid does 6000 total raid dps over a fight and this is increased by a 10% buff with 16,7% uptime, that's a 1.67% incrase. However, these 6000 raid dps are the average value of high burst phases with cooldowns, lower dps phases when cooldowns are on cd and even phase transitions with no dps at all (talking unmerged here ofc). TA is used during the opener when all cd's are up, sometimes even twice in a fight, and in between is used with whatever cd's are available, it is obviously never used during downtime. It snapshots phases where the spike dps is usually higher than the average value at the end of the fight, thus the dps contribution of TA does in fact exceed 1,67% of the total damage done. If it wasn't like that it would be irrelevant if you sync it with cooldowns as long as you use it whenever abailable, which is obviously not the case.

[whiskeybravo]

But the CDs are going to happen with or without TA. I've never once been in a group where I was told to hold all my CDs until TA, that would prolly be a huge DPS loss for everyone being as how most offensive CDs are longer than 60 sec. There are points in some fights where everything lines up, at the beginning, phase transitions, etc. but it's mathematically impossible for it to contribute more than 1.67% of total damage dealt. It doesn't matter how much damage is dealt at any particular point, it's only going to increase it by 10%, and it's only going to be available for 10 seconds every 60.

[Velhart]

MNK's are fine and do great DPS in raids. Only thing it really lacks is good DPS raid utility for other jobs. Depending on your composition a MNK might not be ideal, but really, that is for any job.

[whiskeybravo]

OK. Maybe I'm wrong. I tried to come up with a complex example and came out to around 2% increase.


1500 20 sec 30,000 (opener)
1300 40 sec 52,000
1350 20 sec 27,000 (cds coming back)
1450 20 sec 29,000
1300 40 sec 52,000 (lull)
1350 20 sec 27,000
1450 20 sec 29,000 (cds)
1300 40 sec 52,000
1350 20 sec 27,000
325,000



1500 20 sec +10% 10 sec 1650 * 10, 1500 * 10 31,500 (1.050%)
1300 40 sec 52,000
1350 20 sec +10% 10 sec 1485 * 10, 1350 * 10 28,350 (5.000%)
1450 20 sec 29,000
1300 40 sec +10% 10 sec 1430 * 10, 1300 * 30 53,300 (1.025%)
1350 20 sec 27,000
1450 20 sec 29,000
1300 40 sec +10% 10 sec 1430 * 10, 1300 * 30 53,300 (1.025%)
1350 20 sec 28,350
331,800 (1.0209%)


If it could "never exceed' 1.67% then the total would only be 330,428. But it's more than that @ 2.09%

I give up lol

[Waliel]

There are so many different things that affect TA's contribution raid DPS that it's impossible to give exact number for it; it will be different for every fight inside one group killing the same boss a hundred times. Around 2% would be good rough average for your every day calculations.

TA uptime also increases the sooner the boss dies after it drops off, so it's slightly higher than 16.7% almost always.

things

Your per cent markings are all over the place. I doubt you meant TA increases your damage only by 1.02% or 0.02%. The whole thing is also quite hard to decipher.

[Kaisersoke]

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out of my ass? haha no. cute though, lets try to be civil. i said last i checked, which is indicator that it wasnt going to be particularly accurate. lets take a look at those logs, as those were exactly what i was speaking of.

on the logs for living liquid, since lets be real, its the first actual savage fight, we have 16 monks in the top 20, theyre all doing, lets say about 1300. the top 16 dragoon parses are at about 1260 or so, and the top 16 ninja parses are at around 1200.

mind you im not doing any exact math here, but thats not too far off from my first number, and a good number of those parses dont even have a ninja for trick attack. thanks for being douchey and claiming im pulling things out of my ass, nice assumption, pal.

monks are very powerful and very desired, effectively replacing ninja very easily. Lets not even think about how few ninjas can even reach those numbers due to mudra lag. you could drop the antagonism and have a civil discussion, or you can continue being childish. shrug

[Umbrax]

Imagine if MCHs were doing blunt damage, do you think the MNK, NIN, MCH comp would be competitive? I don't like the idea of not having a DRG because of Disembowel and Battle Litany, but MNK DPS would win the trade vs. Battle Litany by far. NIN not only brings TA which is awesome, they also bring Goad, Shadewalker and Smoke Bomb which increases the DPS of the MT directly by a lot letting them do more non-enmity combos.

Back to real state of the game, atm MCHs are doing piercing damage, so I don't see the point of bringing a MNK to a really elitist raid. MNK dps is not worth losing the DRG or NIN advantages.

But indeed you can do the content with a MNK, they are going to be always #1 in the parse if we compare to the other 2 melees jobs in the current state of the game. They are really fun to play also and they can be played in EU without feeling frustrated.