A Part, and yet Apart

[ruskie]

You also have to give him credit on one thing: Unlike Mifilia, he’s a competent fighter, and during the vast majority of the MSQ duty fights in HW, he fights right alongside you. He’s also outright stated that if only he possessed the Echo himself, he’d be right there fighting the primals alongside you

No thanks. I've seen him fight... I'd rather have someone like Y'shtola by my side. At least she doesn't let me die(it's a good thing I was co leveling bard and white mage during 3.0 msq else I'd be cursing him 'till end of days).

But yeah he went from annoying to someone I don't mind having around. It's nice that they are actually evolving the characters.

But silent hero is the game of the day. I don't mind it at all though sometimes I just want to slap some NPCs...

[Februs]

Snip.

The Thancred dialogue, if I recall directly, is before the Leviathan summoning, and you have to speak directly to Thancred. I don't think it was cutscene dialogue. I just found it strange wording because tempering seems pretty black and white. Either you have the echo, or you don't; so, you can either be tempered, or you cant. Yet, their awkward wording made it seem like Thancred fell into some strange grey area. For all we know, this could have just been a mistake in translation, though.

Ifrit is certainly a lazy Primal. They bring him soldiers and his response is "welp, easiest thing to do is to just temper them." But, oddly, this is precisely my point. It is seemingly an easy thing to do, and tempering would be the easiest way for a Primal to stop people from hurting him/her, yet neither Leviathan nor Bahamut do it.

For Levi, consider he uses tempering as a punishment (represented in both lore and by the fact that most "Drowned" enemies we see are humans, which I thought was a nice touch). Yet, he did not see fit to Drown the group of heroes who lured him into a cove and laid the mother of all artillery strikes on him? You can't tell me that it didn't occur to him that he could have saved his life if he just tempered the last few soldiers before they finished him off, or even tempered the first few and made them fight the others while he got out to sea... there's no way he should have lost that fight. They're asking us to suspend a lot of disbelief here, but, fine, lets concede for a moment that Levi was somehow incapable of doing these two ridiculously easy methods of winning. Maybe he got a cannonball in his eye or something. That still doesn't explain Bahamut.

Consider that you yourself said Bahamut successfully tempered Louisoix, a newborn Primal, which should have been an impossible act in a chain of impossible acts (given that Louisoix should not have been able to revert back to his original form without the echo). Yet, you also say that he is incapable of tempering the twins because he's incomplete... What?? lol. So, we're expected to believe that Bahamut could successfully preform an impossible tempering after he got a hole punched through his chest, was dying, and was in the process of exploding into pieces, but he could not manage to preform a simple tempering that should be possible for any normal primal while he was bound in the coils and calmly reconstructing his body which also happened to be getting very close to being complete. Now they're asking us to suspend A LOT of disbelief lol.

You also sate that you believe tempering requires "considerable amount of conscious effort ... and it can only be done at a certain rate of time." Yet, you also argue that only the Echo is capable of resisting... who why would it take any effort. Will, sure. Desire, sure. Effort? No. If these poor people have no means of defense or resistance, than it would take no effort to temper them, only the will to do it. Further, there is no indication that tempering is not an infinite ability with 0 charge time. In fact, the only proof we have is Ifrit's tempering scene, which took two seconds. Yup, very inconvenient. If anything, the only proof that scene of gives us of anything is that proximity is a factor (as the fire had to actually touch the person targeted)

I could go on, given that every "extraordinary circumstance" you've pointed out either contradicts or blatantly ignores the lore of the echo in some way or another, but I think the point is clear. The sheer fact that there are "extraordinary circumstances" in which the echo is either insufficient or blatantly ignored indicates one of two things:

1. The echo is not the sole defense against Primal Influence. (This is actually not that far fetched, as the Ifrit Tempering Scene implies it. They state that Ifrit could not temper us because our soul belonged to another. This would imply that one Primal cannot Temper the followers of another primal, for example. It also might explain the Knights of the Round being able to flip flop around. If they have a pure devotion to their king, than the Primal they take into their bodies would have no influence on their souls, because they already belonged to another. Just an idea, but I think it's better than the alternative.)

Or,

2. The writers made glaring mistakes or blatantly ignored the lore they wrote for themselves because it was inconvenient at the time. Between the two, I'd rather assume option 1, because I'd like to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and I can see how they could work around their own lore. It's fine to take the "echo is the only defense" as gospel, but, if you go that route, there is no denying that there are some glaring holes that the strict absolute lore of the story cannot explain. Absolutes in writing tend to cause such problems. So, personally, I'm gonna go ahead and have faith in that grey area.

[Frederick22]

Snip

The answer is very simple Februs.
1. Bahamut was really angry, he had no interest on tempering, just to kill them. Besides I noticed that when a primal wants to temper someone, he does not doing it with an atack that can kill someone. Remember ifrit is blue tempering fire or garuda is weird winds. You can notice when a primal wants to temper and when not. Bahamut was just focus on killing the twins and the WoL.
2. The best result we can get about, iceheart, the heaven's ward and louisoix is that you dont need the echo to become a primal.
3. Thancred wasnt thinking right, we has so blind and dessesperate to follow the setps of louisoix that he was easely caught off guard
4. We arent sure how much powerfull was Bahamut, we still dont know if a primal can temper another primal but Louisoix wasnt actually a pure primal. There is a different between the ones like ifrit and the orthers that are humans that can transform themselfs into a primal. Also sure that Louisoix was weak too.

PD: a primal's tempering atack is active not passive. Thats the reason why people taht doesnt have the echo can confront a primal with a good startegy, also depending how the atack is, it can be avoidable, but if you are hit you are done. Also if the primal is hurt enought to not being able to temper someone well, do i need to explain more? xd

Honeslty i think you are going too far with this saing that the develop team has made sereval flaws with this, they didnt.

[Kaiser-Ace]

The answer is very simple Februs.
1. Bahamut was really angry, he had no interest on tempering, just to kill them. Besides I noticed that when a primal wants to temper someone, he does not doing it with an atack that can kill someone. Remember ifrit is blue tempering fire or garuda is weird winds. You can notice when a primal wants to temper and when not. Bahamut was just focus on killing the twins and the WoL.
2. The best result we can get about, iceheart, the heaven's ward and louisoix is that you dont need the echo to become a primal.
3. Thancred wasnt thinking right, we has so blind and dessesperate to follow the setps of louisoix that he was easely caught off guard
4. We arent sure how much powerfull was Bahamut, we still dont know if a primal can temper another primal but Louisoix wasnt actually a pure primal. There is a different between the ones like ifrit and the orthers that are humans that can transform themselfs into a primal. Also sure that Louisoix was weak too.

PD: a primal's tempering atack is active not passive. Thats the reason why people taht doesnt have the echo can confront a primal with a good startegy, also depending how the atack is, it can be avoidable, but if you are hit you are done. Also if the primal is hurt enought to not being able to temper someone well, do i need to explain more? xd

Honeslty i think you are going too far with this saing that the develop team has made sereval flaws with this, they didnt.

Thank you Frederick, those are the exact points I wanted to make but summed up much better than I could think of how to word. My explination was going to end up long, rambly, and probably look semi-hostile with it's wording despite it not being the intent.

[lokoxDZz]

snip

Pretty sure its a passive thing(that they have control of course), much like they get aether just from nature and crystals. The thing is that they CHOICE to not temper others, primals come from pray from others, and in a example a sylph wouldnt want ramuh to temper a sahagin.

On the topic i think the WoL is kinda like a abstract personafication of rightousness like in the last boss of 3.* he asks directly what we are and certainly we can think this way, the WoL is like a legend personifcated, perfect in all senses.

I would as far as think WoL as a abstract existent as Neo-Exdeath. We are nearly perfect yet we are always get behind by others, we are like the legends yet we are above, the one who recognizes us see us a powehouse instead of a living being, our enemies fear we entering on the realm of gods.

[Februs]

Snip.

1. Again, he could have just tempered them and forced them to kill themselves, or killed them on the spot while they were willingly bowing their heads. It's not like we haven't seen followers of Primals sacrificed to their respective gods in the past. Seems to me this would have been much easier given that the twins would have had absolutely zero defense against it.

You do raise an interesting point that I've wondered about though. Each Primal seems to use their element to Temper. Odin uses his sword (technically, kinda... it's weird) ... what does Bahamut use?

and 2. I've already explained the gap in the story with Iceheart, Louisoix, and the Knights of the Round. I didn't say you need the echo to summon the Primal. They summon the Primals in the same way, lots of Faith and Prayer. You do, however, need the echo to protect yourself against primal influence. It's been stated that this is the only way. The Primals they summoned should have be able to influence them or full possess them, similar to the way Odin possesses his host, or the way Extreme Primals were summoned in the past. It doesn't matter that a real body was the host. If they don't have the echo, they are doomed to be overtaken by the primal. There's lots of in-game evidence for this.

Iceheart is protected by the echo, but Louisoix and the Knights of the Round are not. They should have been susceptible to full possession or tempering (similar to the way Odin takes over his host). This is a gap in the game lore/logic no matter how you slice it.

I also stated that I'd prefer to give the developers the benefit of the doubt, instead of assuming they made mistakes, but to do that it means I have to allow for the possibility that the Echo is not the only way to defend against primal influence. Relying solely on the gospel of "the Echo is the be all end all defense against Primal influence and nothing else matters" only leaves the story open to holes that cannot be explained.

[Frederick22]

snip.

If primals have choise to who and who not temper then is active not passive.
Lets make an example. If it was a passive ability, everyone who stay near primals would get tempered, but we know thats not the case. Their temper abalities are a tipe of action. Ifrit for example again, he have fire skills right? His temper skill has the form of a blue fire, that doesnt damage his victim but it gets temperise.

[Frederick22]

snip

And again,

Bahamut wanted to kill the twins and the WoL. He has no intention to temper them. Even if he could, he didnt wanted. He was to pissed off. When he got free of Dalamud, why he desided to destroy everything instead of temper everyone? Is exacly the same thing.

No you dont need to echo to summon a primal into yourself and "become" the primal and also you would be able retain your free will. You misundertood what I said.
But even so if you pay attention to the story, even Iceheart, that she supposely has the echo, didnt get totaly unharmed. Remember that the white dragon told her that she was corrupted by the manifastetion she herself created, but not corrupted enought to realise her mistake.

[Cilia]

“No flaws or faults to overcome”: Ahem, there’s something called a ‘flat character.’ Really, neither this, nor the WoL supposedly lacking ‘goals and dreams’ of their own disqualifies them as the hero protagonist of the story.

I acknowledge that the Warrior of Light is a character in the strictest sense, and that being a flat character makes them still a character. Even so, very little in the way of their motive is examined, and aside from taking up the burden of being Eorzea's savior quite early in the MSQ they have little in the way of character development. As a 'flat character,' there is very little to him/her beyond "Eorzea's hope" in terms of characterization (well, that and *stoic nod*).

... unless you do the DRK 30-50 line, which examines their selfish motive beneath the selfless mask. It's retroactive, and when you really think about it, almost heartbreaking, but that's why I like that line so much.

snip

Time to break it down.

On Tempering - Frequency
-While it's easy to assume that a primal can temper as often as they like and with minimal effort, the fact of the matter is the Company of Heroes defeated Leviathan and Titan despite not having the Echo, and it was stated in a dev letter somewhere that they did this by using human wave tactics: wave 1 runs in and is tempered, wave 2 fights wave 1, and wave 3 finally fights the primal. If primals could temper instantly and as often as they like, this stratagem simply would not work... and yet it does, canonically. Therefore, a primal must not be able to temper instantaneously and as often as they like.

On Tempering - Personality
-You read that right. A primal's personality doubtless influences the frequency to which they will resort to tempering. Take Ifrit, for example; his personality is colored by domination, thus leading to his tendency to use tempering as his first means of subduing mortals. Conversely, Ramuh doesn't even want to temper the sylphs who summon him; their tempering is an inadvertent side-effect of being in such close proximity to his summoning. Bahamut, then, was colored by Tiamat's grief and the Meracydian dragons' rage, then locked away in Dalamud for five thousand years; naturally, tempering is not really something he would do often unless he really needed to do it. He's more interested in killing as many people and causing as much devastation as he can, and only tempers van Darnus and Louisoix because it will get him back on his feet. By the time you get to the Burning Heart, he's almost fully reconstructed... either he wasn't conscious enough to temper, or simply didn't believe it was necessary.

On Tempering - Effort
-What I meant was that the primal can only temper so often because it exhausts them to do it too frequently, or they're simply incapable of it. To use an analogy, you can only run X miles in Y time. Think of it like that, not "how easy is it to temper mortals?"

On Tempering - Louisoix
-The point isn't that Bahamut tempering Louisoix (a fellow primal) was an exceptional circumstance, but that everything about what actually happened at the Battle of Cartenau and in the Coil was exceptional. Never before had a mortal become a primal. Never before did a primal hold onto a tempered mortal's essence for later use (van Darnus). Never had anyone broken free of tempering, as is the case with both reconstructed van Darnus and Louisoix. I don't think it's really fair to use Bahamut, van Darnus, or Louisoix as standards for much of anything, since pretty much everything that happens with them in 2.x is an exception to the rules.

And, considering Eorzea is a world where you can summon a phantom god with the planet's life energy, resurrect 5-year dead people with a potent enough alchemical mix, and ride a floating island being towed behind an airship while fighting a giant sky whale... exceptions to the established rules and new discoveries are par for the course.

[CyrilLucifer]

Totally on the theoretical here, but I'd be curious as to if our WoL's Echo, in the future, would be strong enough to shield or encapsulate another person's mind-soul space in order to protect them when fighting a Primal.

Alternatively, with an Echo user inside someone's mind-soul space, would the person they're inside (not necessarily in a possession way, but like how the WoL enters Thancred's to force Laha out in Prae) be immune to tempering as well?

It seems to me like a skilled Echo user could be very, very, very powerful indeed. We need to get on studying.