A Part, and yet Apart

[Cilia]

snip

Ohh boy... this is complicated.

The problem with that is that we are the hero, not the protagonist. The two are often conflated, but this isn't always the case.

Spoilies!

G'raha is the protagonist of the CT storyline, but he is not the hero. We are always the hero, but because almost no storyline in the game examines our character or leaves us personally responsible for much of anything that is happening, we are almost never the protagonist. We just beat up whatever is in the way of the real protagonist's / protagonists' way that's preventing them from fulfilling their goals.

Case and point: G'raha. CT is his story about how he was bullied as a child and has sought the reason behind what his father said and his connection to Allag. We help him achieve that goal by exterminating the inhabitants of Syrcus Tower, but that might not necessarily be our goal. NOAH's goal starts out as "for research" and transitions to "to protect the world from someone abusing Syrcus Tower," but the Warrior of Light has no personal investment in how things turn out. (Unless you, the player, come up with one yourself.) Aside from being a giant stick that can be used to whack whatever gets in the way of the protagonist (G'raha) from realizing his goals and getting his character development, we aren't needed.

3.0 has a similar dynamic. Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle form a 3-man band, with Alphinaud as the realist, Estinien as the pessimist, and Ysayle as the idealist. They all have their character development (though Alphinaud's is minimal, given 2.x's ending marked a massive change for his character), and we are along for the ride... but contribute almost nothing to the story except dead bodies. Alphinaud wants to help Ishgard end the Dragonsong War in return for granting us safe haven; in spite of everything thrown at him (and us), we succeed. Estinien wants to end the Dragonsong War because he hates all dragons and wants to kill them, but gradually becomes slightly more idealistic and only does so when it becomes absolutely clear there is no other option. Ysayle starts out as an idealistic "if we excise the Church the dragons will be happy" woman, but later seems to accept that Nidhogg is (or was) a deranged psycho who had to be put down.

If you take out primal fights, the number of times you are personally necessary are extremely small: at the conclusion of your city-state intro quest because there was nobody else around, at the end of the Praetorium because you're the only one bad enough to go toe-to-toe with Gaius and your Blessing lets you take on the Ultima Weapon, against Nabriales because there was no one available, and at the very end of Heavensward because everyone else was busy.

Ultimately, the point is being the hero does not mean we are the the protagonist. To use a pop culture reference, Light Yagami of Death Note is not the hero of his story, yet he is still the protagonist. We just butcher whatever is in the way of the protagonist(s), thus setting the stage for them to fulfill their goals.

The thing is we were hardly that strong when we begun. Maybe if those layabouts came out and levelled with us they'd be able to solo Ifrit too.

Ehh... maybe. But remember that a primal's strength is dependent on the quantity of crystals used to summon it; base Ifrit, for instance, is pathetically weak because he had very few crystals to fuel him, something Nero takes note of after the fight. Once we get to Titan though it's implied that almost nobody has beaten him before; the Company of Heroes did so using human wave tactics and at a heavy loss, and they're all hardened badasses (supposedly...).

snip

Not true. If you rewatch Minfilia and Thancred's debriefing post-Ifrit, they specifically point out that the Echo is what gives you the power to resist tempering. We lose Hydaelyn's Blessing of Light after the Keeper of the Lake, but Middy let us keep the Echo.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I don't think Middy had the ability to take the Echo from us to start with, only to seal the blessing of light per "The Convent" (what ever it was).

[CyrilLucifer]

I don't think Middy had the ability to take the Echo from us to start with, only to seal the blessing of light per "The Convent" (what ever it was).

I agree. I get the sense that he couldn't take the Echo as well.

[Fenral]

Ohh boy... this is complicated.

The problem with that is that we are the hero, not the protagonist. The two are often conflated, but this isn't always the case.

And the problem with focusing too hard on the rigid distinctions between the two is that the directorial intent in Final Fantasy XIV is rather clearly to conflate them. It's not that I don't generally agree with your analysis, just that the "message" embedded in the work and how it seeks to achieve that are frequently at odds.

It really wants to stress on you, the player, your potential, your responsibility, your importance in shaping the future. At its best, you get Alisaie, who is inspired by your example to understand her own potential. At its worst, you get G'raha, who extols your capabilities while taking actions that deny his own individual worth entirely.

There certainly are stories like 50-60 Miner, where your involvement is shoehorned in at best (and it's not even really about mining), but for the majority you serve as not only a catalyst but a unifying element connecting people and events that would otherwise never be connected, which would keep the story from advancing in the way it does towards that specific conclusion.

Is the only thing keeping those points from connecting a contrivance of the format? Frequently, sure. This is why so many gal game adaptations can scrap the male PoV character entirely: they're merely a necessity of the original format and not integral to the story being told.

At the same time, there are also certain kinds of blank slate hired-muscle PoVs (i.e. Adol Christin) who don't really grow much as characters, but end up with a reputation that becomes crucial to advancing the story and can't simply be removed or transferred. A G'raha who ran around tearing up zombie emperors and first-rung voidsent on his own wouldn't have the inferiority complex that convinced him that sealing himself in the tower was the only way to validate his existence. It would be a different story, arguably a better one.

Final Fantasy XIV leans towards the latter, but instances of the former do still crop up here and there. The Dark Knight analysis is indeed accurate in the broad strokes, but it is merely the most cynical extreme, and not necessarily applicable to every single scenario presented.

[Februs]

Not true. If you rewatch Minfilia and Thancred's debriefing post-Ifrit, they specifically point out that the Echo is what gives you the power to resist tempering. We lose Hydaelyn's Blessing of Light after the Keeper of the Lake, but Middy let us keep the Echo.

I am aware of what the post-briefing says. They do clearly say that the echo is the shield against Tempering; however, the game seems to contradict this statement with the words and implications of other events and conversations in the game.

It's a fact that Thancred is said to be somehow more susceptible to the influences of Primals after his run in with Lahabrea. Yet, Thancred is never stated to be blessed with the Echo in the first place, so how is he somehow more susceptible? It doesn't make sense, but they exclude Thancred from a lot of Primal related content after MSQ because of fears that he could somehow be tempered... as if that couldn't happen to the rest of them just as easily.

Also, Louisoix, as far as I know, is never stated to have the Echo. He seems to get a blessing of light, allowing him to go super saiyan, but as you stated that's not the same thing. Yet, Bahamut does not temper him before he gets a fist full of super saiyan. He only does it after. Also, the company of Hero's are said to have lured Leviathan into a cove in order to defeat him. None of them are said to have the Echo, but none of them were tempered by the lord of the whorl. Further still, Alphinaud and Alisaie both stood against Bahamut with no fear of tempering... so, what gives?

My point is that, despite them being crystal clear about the echo being required for resisting Primal influences, there have been countless people who have come across primals and not been tempered with no proper explanation as to why. Ifrit displayed quite clearly that it is a quick process (it took him, like, a second to brainwash an entire squad of guys), so time restraints or improper preparation is not a good enough reason.

There are only two possible explanations, either 1, SE has seriously overlooked their own lore and failed miserably at implementing it consistently in this regard, or 2, there is more to resisting Primal influence than echo alone. Despite them not saying it directly, it would seem that a committed will to resist is enough. Otherwise, Alphinaud, Alisaie, and the company of heroes would all be mindless slaves to their respective primals.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I am aware of what the post-briefing says. They do clearly say that the echo is the shield against Tempering; however, the game seems to contradict this statement with the words and implications of other events and conversations in the game.

It's a fact that Thancred is said to be somehow more susceptible to the influences of Primals after his run in with Lahabrea. Yet, Thancred is never stated to be blessed with the Echo in the first place, so how is he somehow more susceptible? It doesn't make sense, but they exclude Thancred from a lot of Primal related content after MSQ because of fears that he could somehow be tempered... as if that couldn't happen to the rest of them just as easily.

Also, Louisoix, as far as I know, is never stated to have the Echo. He seems to get a blessing of light, allowing him to go super saiyan, but as you stated that's not the same thing. Yet, Bahamut does not temper him before he gets a fist full of super saiyan. He only does it after. Also, the company of Hero's are said to have lured Leviathan into a cove in order to defeat him. None of them are said to have the Echo, but none of them were tempered by the lord of the whorl. Further still, Alphinaud and Alisaie both stood against Bahamut with no fear of tempering... so, what gives?

My point is that, despite them being crystal clear about the echo being required for resisting Primal influences, there have been countless people who have come across primals and not been tempered with no proper explanation as to why. Ifrit displayed quite clearly that it is a quick process (it took him, like, a second to brainwash an entire squad of guys), so time restraints or improper preparation is not a good enough reason.

There are only two possible explanations, either 1, SE has seriously overlooked their own lore and failed miserably at implementing it consistently in this regard, or 2, there is more to resisting Primal influence than echo alone. Despite them not saying it directly, it would seem that a committed will to resist is enough. Otherwise, Alphinaud, Alisaie, and the company of heroes would all be mindless slaves to their respective primals.

Ok, about tempering, The Primal Itself has to temper you thus the need to actually WANT to temper you. Only Ifrit seems to do so willy nilly and we've only seen ifrit, Leviathan, and Rahmu temper at all, Leviathan being a form of punishment and Rahmu only doing so upon request though he himself admitted to taking no pleasure in it.

Thancred was possessed by an Echo User's Soul (Lahabrea) and thus had his will damaged. He was a liability until he got over his Emo-Ness and regardless still didn't go with us into primal dens as he didn't have the Echo. We and 3-7 OTHER ECHO USERS are who take down the primals not the other Scions.

Louisoix also wasn't tempered (until later by Bahamut anyway) because he BECAME the primal Phoenix in the same way Thorden VII became God-King Thorden (he and the knights ALSO lack the Echo), and Ysaele, aka Iceheart, became Shiva but at the same time used the echo to keep from becoming her completely thus allowing her to come back unlike Louisoix and The Knights of the Round.

So all in all, I don't see what you're getting at in regards to the Echo. It's a Soul Powered Wall around our existence that allows us to interact with the souls of other beings with out being influenced by them. (Thus immunity to tempering)

Also, remember as it is frequently forgotten, The Blessing of Light is a different power granted by gathering all 6 crystals of light, a feat of which we (The Main Protagonist) alone have achieved to the point that we rival the power of Gods. Even Minfilia and Iceheart don't have the blessing of light just the Echo.

[Cilia]

And the problem with focusing too hard on the rigid distinctions between the two is that the directorial intent in Final Fantasy XIV is rather clearly to conflate them. It's not that I don't generally agree with your analysis, just that the "message" embedded in the work and how it seeks to achieve that are frequently at odds.

While the game does try and present you as the protagonist, beyond your ability to kill foes that nobody else can, I feel it falls flat on that. Sort of. You are a protagonist, but not the protagonist. If you get my drift. It's not your story in the same way, say, X is Tidus' story; you are, in the end, just a drifter who brings hope to the world, but not really a character with flaws and faults to overcome, or goals and dreams of your own. You exist to make the impossible possible, but only for other people.

I think the rest is just a difference of how we view the story. I'd go further into detail, but I have to be up in like 5 hours for horribad factory werk. Maybe tomorrow, if I'm not busy with schoolwork.

snip

Most of these are in extraordinary circumstances. Plus, not all primals are so temper-happy like Ifrit (it's kind of his hat).

I don't recall anyone ever saying Thancred was more susceptible to primal influence after 2.0. Either way he doesn't possess the Echo, so him fighting most primals is out of the question when they can just throw us at it with no fear.

Louisoix is... complicated. I don't fully understand that one myself. My best guess is that after becoming Phoenix, Bahamut somehow infected him with his own aether while they were being dragged down into the Coil. As a newborn primal himself, tempering Louisoix should have been impossible... but again, extraordinary circumstance.

As for the Company of Heroes... many of them were tempered, just not the ones we see. The CoH's strategy for defeating primals was to use wave tactics: wave 1 runs in and gets tempered, wave 2 fights wave 1, wave 3 fights the primal. Without the Echo, that's the best anyone's got, and you know what happens to tempered people...

Alphinaud and Alisae are, again, a complicated affair. I believe, aside from nearby mortals when they are summoned, it takes a considerable amount of conscious effort to temper mortals and it can only be done at a certain rate of time. The Bahamut (on the material plane) encountered in the Binding Coil was an incomplete, unconscious, fragmented husk of the genuine article; his attack on Alphinaud and Alisae was more or less an unconscious defense.

If tempering was an instantaneous, unconscious, infinitely repeatable with 0 charge time ability, nobody would ever be able to defeat a primal except Echo users... which isn't true.

And, if all it took were willpower to resist tempering, it's highly doubtful the more forceful primals (Ifrit and Leviathan) would have as many spoken worshipers as they do.

(That's not to say there aren't holes in it, like how the entire Heavens' Ward are able to use primal super modes despite nothing anywhere stating they all have the Echo. But y'know. It's consistent enough, for my taste at least.)

[Alisa180]

Oh hey, actually a good discussion going here!

Full thing is under the spoiler. Also, WARNING. This is long!

I can see how Alphinaud can be grating to people. I’m probably in the minority, in that I liked him a lot *before* Heavensward. Why?

Well, for one, he undergoes a character arc that’s rarely seen nowadays. And nearly unheard of in dark fantasy stories like FFXIV. There’s kinda a trend that the ‘idealist’ must be thrust into ‘cruel reality’, in the process becoming more cynical. Alphinaud over the course of the 2.0 story pretty much undergoes that character arc in reverse.

Take these lines, when you’re formally introduced to him and his sister at the memorial services:

RAUBAHN
In Eorzea's darkest hour, on the killing fields of Carteneau, none spent more in blood and gold than we. Thus was the VIIth Imperial Legion laid low!

ALPHINAUD
So that's how it happened! How soon history forgets.

....

MERLWYB
That day, the world bore witness to the united strength of Limsa Lominsa! I swear to you─no army ever fought harder, or with more courage. Yet many of ours did not survive. Join me now in remembering those who fought in the name of freedom, and fell. May their souls be returned to the sea.
ALPHINAUD
Freedom... Yes, they have always been rather fond of their freedom.Much as the beast tribes have. Small wonder─beneath the surface, one would struggle to tell them apart.

And his later conversation with Alisaie:

ALISAIE
The so-called “Remembrance” ceremonies were little more than standard-waving rallies. ...As though the Calamity and Seventh Umbral Era warranted scarcely a mention!

ALPHINAUD
Well, of course they were “standard-waving rallies.” Since you are so observant, mayhap you noticed what mention was made of the Warriors of Light? None. I suppose they must have forgotten the heroes who spared Eorzea a fate worse than the Calamity? No, dear Alisaie, they haven't “forgotten” these details. They have elected to omit them.

Now, contrast them to what he says later, when the Scions barge in on the meeting between the city leaders when they are discussing surrender in light of the Ultima Weapon:

ALPHINAUD
Aye! Remember five years ago, when you wagered all for the sake of the realm! Remember what you fought for, what you were willing to die for! Let the memories rekindle the fire in your heart, for Eorzea has need of it again!

He actually lampshades this during the ‘Defenders of Eorzea’ storyline:

ALPHINAUD
Do you recall when first we met? 'Twas at the memorial service for the Battle of Carteneau...
At the time, I was yet attempting to understand this land of Eorzea. I sought to grasp the reason why Grandfather willingly sacrificed himself to protect it.
I shall speak plainly: my initial impressions were less than favorable. Dire problems abounded, and yet the effort I saw expended towards their solution was haphazard and half-hearted. I thought Eorzeans a foolish and childish people.
Considering the shambles their home was in, I would not have been surprised if some had chosen to swear allegiance to Gaius and the order he proposed to enforce. The legatus' single-minded military invasion precluded any such switching of loyalties, of course.
Were it not for a desire to continue Grandfather's legacy, I would have abandoned the realm to its fate long ago. The threats were too many, the nations too self-involved and unstable.

'Twas you who convinced me the salvation of Eorzea was possible.
'Twas you who taught me─through countless acts of bravery─that what my grandsire sought to preserve was not the land, nor its history, nor any single nation...
It was the people. These wonderful, oft infuriating, stubborn people that suffer blow after terrible blow only to drag themselves back to their feet to face another day.
Though he never put such feelings into words, I believe Grandfather's admiration for this inextinguishable courage grew into a fervent wish─a wish to aid Eorzea and its inhabitants in charting a course for the future.
A wish that has now become my own.

Speaking of, this is probably my favorite moment for Alphinaud in the entire game. This was when it was made clear that he’s gone from simply desiring to continue Louisoix’s legacy, to having gained his own resolve to protect Eorzea. This, for me, was where I really saw the character’s potential.

Yes, he had his head up his ass, and he needed to be knocked down a few pegs. But means well at heart, and after at least 2.3 he’s motivated by genuine affection for the people of Eorzea. Not unlike his grandfather.

While he does treat the WoL as a ‘pawn’ of sorts, especially pre-3.0, he’s not as detached as he likes to make himself out to be. Even before 3.0. Despite the relatively calm, assured face he put on, Alphinaud actually frets over his actions a bit. More specifically, he worries a lot about the WoL whenever they go into danger, especially when doing it at his prerogative. The first indication of this was at the end of Stone Vigil:

ALPHINAUD
Forename! Forename! Are you all right? Speak to me!
Twelve be praised, I feared the beast had injured you.
I see now why the others rated you so highly. When you were caught in the midst of that aetheric bubble with the dragon, I was all but certain my next mission would be to find a new champion.
Thank the gods for sparing me that inconvenience.

Careful reading of this, and other lines, show that while he tries to downplay it, it’s really just his way of covering up his fretting. He does a pretty good job of covering it up after this point, but the Dreams of Ice storyline lets a couple interesting tidbits through. For example, if you talk to Lucia right after finishing Snowcloak:

TACITRUM TEMPLE KNIGHT
'Tis a blessing you are still with us. Commander Leveilleur took to pacing in your absence.

Moenbryda also lets an interesting bit slip during the Dreams of Ice storyline:

MOENBRYDA
Ah, but before that, you had best pay a visit to Whitebrim Front and speak with Alphinaud. He's probably worried sick about you.

He’s surprisingly nonchalant when you do report to him, however:

ALPHINAUD
There she is─and none the worse for wear! Was there ever any doubt that the Warrior of Light would succeed?

But later, during the Heavensward story, it pretty much spells out that Alphinaud covers up his emotions more than he ever lets on to the WoL:

ESTINIEN
Never did I doubt you, Warrior of Light...unlike some. You were gone so long that Master Alphinaud here nigh lost his wits with worry. Fretting like a maid for her sweetheart, he was!
ALPHINAUD
Estinien! Was that truly necessary!?
ESTINIEN
Hahaha... Not truly necessary─but certainly true.
ALPHINAUD
Ahem! What matters is that the primal is banished, and our promise fulfilled. We should return to Vidofnir without delay.
Lest you forget, this was but a means to secure an audience with the wyrm Hraesvelgr. Nidhogg's minions will not be halted by idle chatter! Come, now─we must make every moment count!

In other words, whenever he says something like ‘Was there ever any doubt?’ (like at the end of HW storyline right after the WoL escapes from the Flagship on Midgarsommer), it’s his way of covering up the fact that he himself held a lot of doubt that the WoL would return safely. :P

You also have to give him credit on one thing: Unlike Mifilia, he’s a competent fighter, and during the vast majority of the MSQ duty fights in HW, he fights right alongside you. He’s also outright stated that if only he possessed the Echo himself, he’d be right there fighting the primals alongside you:

ALPHINAUD
Once more a primal rears its head, and once more the task of slaying it falls to you.
Would that I, too, possessed the Echo...

And he’s had to be withheld from certain missions because while he’s competent, he lacks experience and would only ‘drag the WoL’ down. Like before the mission to kill Nidhogg:

ESTINEIN
What, you too, Master Alphinaud? By the Fury...You have shown some promise, but this adversary is far beyond your skills.

Really, during HW, he starts treating the WoL more as an equal and friend. At the very beginning of HW, he insists on going to Ul’dah to begin clearing their names, while the WoL moves on to Ishgard. After all, he had said in the last scene of ‘Before the Fall’ “I hardly deserve such friendship.” He has to be convinced otherwise by Haurchefant.

Another favorite quote of mine:

ALPHINAUD
I blush to speak thus of mine inner turmoil...
But the fact remains: there is no woman alive in whom I would rather confide. Were it not for your shining example, I might never have emerged from beneath the pall of my despair.

And another:

(In reference to the WoL venturing into the Binding Coil of Bahamut with Alisaie)
ALPHINAUD
...I am glad that it is you with whom she makes this journey.
If Alisaie is to discover a deeper purpose, then where better to find one than at the side of Eorzea's greatest champion? ...'Twas there that I found mine, after all.

He’s only the ‘superior’ by virtue of being competent with politics and diplomacy. While the WoL is strictly the ‘fighter.’ To quote from ‘Dream of Ice’:

ALPHINAUD
...Mayhap you feel this to be a waste of your talents, which could doubtless be put to nobler use? If so, I should remind you that more good can be accomplished with the stroke of a pen than the thrust of a sword.
If my many “adventures” in diplomacy have taught me anything, it is the importance of humoring those who have something one wants.
Not every victory is won on a battlefield, my friend. 'Tis the lot of legendary heroes to be paraded about from time to time.

Y’know...Upon thinking on this more, one good thing came out of his arrogance: He puts much less stock in the WoL as a ‘symbol of hope’ then the others. Oh sure, pre-3.0 he had no problem using that view to further his own ends. But, while it’s toned down during HW thanks to the humble pie he was served, he *also* wants to be a ‘guardian of Eorzea.’ to quote:

ALPHINAUD
Impressive as always,<Player>. 'Tis ever a pleasure to witness the spectacle of your martial prowess.
And judging by the smiles on these many faces, they, too, appreciate the hard-won strength that keeps the perils of the realm at ba
“Guardian of Eorzea”... Yes, that is a most fitting title.
....
I, too, will endeavor to take up the mantle of guardian of Eorzea, and champion these people who toil towards a better world.

Once he’s torn down from his pedestal and realizes how he’s treated everyone, even the Scions, as ‘pawns’, he’s left in a position to treat the WoL more as a person rather than a symbol. He clearly has misgivings about leaving things solely to the WoL, and as cited above during HW he helps with the fighting whenever he can.

I suspect in the near future, we might get a more ‘deconstructionist’ bent to the fact that we’re the ‘great hero of Light.’ And I predict that if/when that happens, Alphinaud will return the favor when we stuck by him despite the events of ‘Before the Fall.’ I’m losing my train of thought here, but it’s going to be very interesting to see his role going forward.

On the protagonist/hero thing:

We are unquestionably the hero AND protagonist of the story. The plot revolves around us, and we end up solving the primary conflicts of the story. Not to mention, with a few cutscene expectations, pretty much the entire story is told from our POV. These two traits put the WoL firmly in Hero Protagonist territory.

HOWEVER, I would argue Alphinaud is the deuteragonist of FFXIV. The duertagonist is literally ‘the second person the story revolves around,’ and the one whose actions drive the plot as much as the protagonist. Alphinaud, especially during Heavensward, falls easily into this category.

While the game does try and present you as the protagonist, beyond your ability to kill foes that nobody else can, I feel it falls flat on that. Sort of. You are a protagonist, but not the protagonist. If you get my drift. It's not your story in the same way, say, X is Tidus' story; you are, in the end, just a drifter who brings hope to the world, but not really a character with flaws and faults to overcome, or goals and dreams of your own. You exist to make the impossible possible, but only for other people.

“No flaws or faults to overcome”: Ahem, there’s something called a ‘flat character.’ Really, neither this, nor the WoL supposedly lacking ‘goals and dreams’ of their own disqualifies them as the hero protagonist of the story.

[Kaiser-Ace]

The WoL's Protagonist Archtype is "Silent Hero" guys.

He/She is the blank sleight that we cast our own personalties too.

I myself tend to project my own ideals and thoughts on to my Avatar and by extension feel the outrage, not, sorrow, and confusion that the (ironically vauge) facial expressions display.

IMO FF14 has done an extremely good job potraying the Silent Hero Archtype.

[Februs]

Snip.

1. I'm not sure what your point is with this one. Not wanting to temper someone is not the same as not being able to. Regardless of the Primal's personal feelings on the subject (which ... is an odd thing to consider, given the character foils we're dealing with) it would not change the fact that it would be a tactically sound thing to do if you wanted to stop someone from messing with you. So, the both Alphinaud and Alisaie would have been nothing but a minor inconvenience to Bahamut during T13, but we're expected to believe that he let them do as they wanted because he just wasn't in the mood to temper them? Right.... sure...

Worst case for Bahamut in tempering the twins was that he'd get two mindless drones he didn't want. Big whop. If it bugged him so much he could just command them to throw themselves off of a cliff, or feed themselves to one of the many monsters we were protecting them from just to get them there. The worst case in not tempering them was, oh, right, we killed him.

See the point yet? For some non-echo related reason, the two of them walked out fine when it would have been in Bahamut's best interests to use the easiest means of disposing them. He would have still had to deal with us, sure, but no more twins to divide his attention.

2. The Thancred thing is a small issue, since it's in tiny snippets of personal dialogue, but the fact is that there was some dialogue parts that implied he was more susceptible to tempering after the Lahabrea incident. The problem is with the wording here. If echo is the be all end all defense against tempering, than it's pretty black and white. You can't somehow be "more" susceptible. You either are or you aren't. So, again, what were they getting at here? Maybe just a mistranslated piece of text, who knows?

3. Louisoix was tempered. The fact that it happened after he turned himself into Phoenix is the part that is even more confusing about the echo business for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the fact that Louisoix could turn himself into a Primal and back again without the echo makes no sense given what we know about it. Supposedly, the only reason Iceheart could achieve this without losing her marbles is because of the echo, so, what is Louisoix's secret?

Secondly, Bahamut successfully tempered Louisoix after he used his primal powers to punch a hole through Bahamut's chest. So, either Bahamut was capable of tempering another Primal (which is unlikely) or Louisoix was somehow weakened after his transformation, which leads back to the idea that echo is not the deciding factor in this case. Further, going back to your idea that some primals simply don't "want" to temper people, the timing of Louisoix's tempering makes no sense either. Bahamut was clearly capable. He successfully tempered Louisoix which, according to you, means he must have "wanted" to temper him in the moment. Yet he waited until AFTER he got falcon punched. WHY? How does this make sense? If Bahamut was capable of tempering Louisoix any time he wanted than, by rights, he should never have gotten a fist full of Phoenix in the first place. He could have just tempered Louisoix and been done with it.

4. Lastly, your point about the Knights of the Round and Louisoix not being able to turn back is actually baseless. Louisoix did turn back. He is seen walking around in human form throughout the entire coils. He also retained his personality, as we have a full blown conversation with him in the Final Coil. The same goes for the Knights of the Round They are seen frequently turning back and forth between their primal forms and their human forms in both the Vault dungeon and several cutscenes, and Theodan himself retains his personality during the KOTR fight, and yet not one of them have been confirmed to have the power of the echo.

So, all in all, I'm not sure what you were getting at with any of your examples...