A Part, and yet Apart

[Cilia]

Just to rebut:

1. Alphinaud isn't really a prick IMO. He's hungry for glory and proud, but he has the best intentions at heart (though you know what they say about good intentions). While he does kind of force his way into the narrative, it's after the Garlean raid and most of the Scions are being held captive or at a loss as to what to do - and Alphinaud steps up to the plate to pull everyone together and keep the mission alive. The problem is that, aside from his pride, he never really steps down; after Minfilia and co. are rescued he continues to play the diplomat, to the point he is almost the de facto leader of the Scions with his Crystal Braves. Well, pride before the fall...

2. Correct; most of the Scions are Sharlayan. This goes back to 1.x, where Minfilia led the Path of the Twelve and Louisoix the Circle of Knowing; the former was mostly native Eorzeans, while the latter was a group of Sharlayan mavericks who came to Eorzea to try and prepare people for the Calamity. In the aftermath of the Calamity and Louisoix's "death," the two groups merged into the Scions of the Seventh Dawn we know today. Given there were far fewer prominent NPCs that were members of the Path of the Twelve, well... it's not surprising most of the Scions hail from Sharlayan.

They do all treat you like a dumb weapon though, something your shadow points out following the climactic confrontation of the DRK 50 quest. (Well, more like everyone treats you like that, but...) Lots of characters point this out; while he might be a total dirtbag, Ilberd is correct when he says that others are just using you as a tool. That hits a bit close to home, especially if you've done the DRK 50 quest.

3. Yeah, they include you in the discussion, but I figured they were letting you back out if you so chose. They don't want you to feel obligated, I don't think, though we of course are because we're that kind of hero. And, of course, being the singular most skilled combatant we are going to be doing the lion's share of the fighting. If we do nothing we will indirectly be responsible for the razing of Ishgard; if we help out, we're just someone's tool to be used and disposed of when we're no longer convenient to use. Ah, the dilemma of playing the hero...

4. Yeah, I totes wanted a Crystal Braves uniform too. Those things must be super-expensive or cost a lot to dry clean, or something.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: we aren't the real protagonist of XIV. That role shifts around and is carried by various people. We're just muscle, a tool to make sure things others want to happen comes to pass. We're not really an outsider to the Scions, at least not after the conclusion of 2.0 but we are not part of the inner circle beyond our use as an unstoppable force to point at threats.

... man, playing DRK really makes you see the ugly truths you'd rather avert your eyes from.

[Fenral]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: we aren't the real protagonist of XIV. That role shifts around and is carried by various people. We're just muscle, a tool to make sure things others want to happen comes to pass.

But aside from DRK, pretty much every story bends over backwards to tell you that you are the hero, the beacon of hope, the last light, and so forth. The entire story exists to stress upon you the importance of your role in shaping the future of Eorzea, which you accept because you are a doormat with no individual will you are the hero. Regardless of the technicalities of the writing, FFXIV is very much constructed to make you into the most important person in Eorzea.

There's prime deconstruction fuel in there, but thus far we're still plodding through the main story with alarmingly less genre awareness then is typical for a 21st century JRPG.

[Cilia]

. . . My bigger issue with the Scions is why none of the other Echo holders, like Arenvald, ever help out with this Primal thing.

They probably aren't skilled combatants like we are. Our sheer martial (or magical) prowess is our main asset in fights against primals; the Echo just prevents us from being tempered. Ordinary people can and have defeated primals in the past before, it just takes human wave tactics to exhaust the primal's ability to temper before the real fighters can go up against the primal.

Put bluntly, even with the Echo a primal will still murder your ass if you can't fight. *glares at Minfilia*

snip

True but protagonist != hero. This is common, but not always the case. While we do make everything better, for most intents and purposes we aren't really a character; we get almost no characterization in the MSQ and are simply treated as the standard humble doormat of a silent protagonist. In almost every single class / job quest you're just a spectator to the story of others. This is even true of most of the MSQ!

You're the hero, the unstoppable force to point at whatever is threatening Eorzean peace this week... but that's all you are. You aren't really the protagonist of anything because only one story in the game is really your story. The rest are about someone else. While RPGs do generally avoid the "paragon" archetype these days, the problem is that XIV is an MMO... and thus every PC has to be interchangeable. It's a limitation that comes with adding MMO to the RPG. You do influence events, but take one Warrior of Light out and plug another one in, and the story would continue rolling with no changes at all. Hell, if the Echo weren't a damn-near necessity for fighting primals and the soldiers were competent, you could almost take the Warrior of Light out of the story and it would spin on none the wiser.

[fm_fenrir]

Hell, if the Echo weren't a damn-near necessity for fighting primals and the soldiers were competent, you could almost take the Warrior of Light out of the story and it would spin on none the wiser.

The soldiers are competent though. The main difference is that without Hydaelyn's crystalline boost, they just can't exceed mortal limits like the WOL can. Most of the job quests are to the tune of "We're already doing this military operation, but since you're an invincible murder machine, can you help us out?".

You're right, however, that if the WOL just decided to dance a jig while fireballs rained on the field, nothing would change about the outcome of any of the quests or missions. There would just be a lot more NPC casualties than the story claims.

[Fenral]

you could almost take the Warrior of Light out of the story and it would spin on none the wiser.

But that's just it, the entire universe is constructed in such a way that our presence is a necessity for even the tiniest of fetch quests.

(spoilers for everything up through 3.0)

Even the "main characters" we meet are basically presented as one of two flavors. On one side you have your G'rahas, who have an entire character arc dedicated to discovering that they are, in fact, incapable of accomplishing anything, and accepting that and leaving everything up to the real hero is portrayed as a positive development. Because it's not about him, it's about us, and how great we are.

On the flipside, you get your Estiniens and your Ysayles. They have arcs about doing things on their own, having their own changes they want to bring about in the world, but in not relying on us, they end up punished by the very construction of the universe, ultimately leaving their tasks for us to finish for them anyway.

Alisaie is the only character in the middle of all this, but she gets a pass because while she wants to be a hero like us, she parts with us at a level that still isn't a threat to our uncontested superiority.

But in general, arguing it could spin on without us is pointless, because the universe itself is constructed to impress upon the player how meaningful their contribution is. It all comes back to the FF1 epilogue scroll: "The real hero is YOU."

[FJerome]

They probably aren't skilled combatants like we are. Our sheer martial (or magical) prowess is our main asset in fights against primals; the Echo just prevents us from being tempered. Ordinary people can and have defeated primals in the past before, it just takes human wave tactics to exhaust the primal's ability to temper before the real fighters can go up against the primal.

Put bluntly, even with the Echo a primal will still murder your ass if you can't fight. *glares at Minfilia*

The thing is we were hardly that strong when we begun. Maybe if those layabouts came out and levelled with us they'd be able to solo Ifrit too.

[Februs]

They probably aren't skilled combatants like we are. Our sheer martial (or magical) prowess is our main asset in fights against primals; the Echo just prevents us from being tempered. Ordinary people can and have defeated primals in the past before, it just takes human wave tactics to exhaust the primal's ability to temper before the real fighters can go up against the primal.

Put bluntly, even with the Echo a primal will still murder your ass if you can't fight. *glares at Minfilia*

This might not actually be the case. It is told to us that the echo shields us from Primal influences; however, we do not have the echo during every Primal Fight. The echo is at low power during both Ravana and Bismark fights, so I don't think that the echo is the sole means of defense against primal influence.
"
Further proof of this is Thancred. It is never said that he has the echo; however, it is implied several times that he was immune to Tempering before the Ascions got their claws into him. There are a couple of occasions where, if you talk to him before a primal fight, he apologizes for not being useful to you in the fight, because he is no longer immune to Primal influence. Why was he immune before? He didn't have Echo to protect him, so what gives?

I think that the baseline defense against Primal Influence is a strong and indomitable will, not the echo. This could be further shown by the old fart and the Garlean he/she (nael) creature who were taken by Bahamut. They did not get tempered until after they were left weakened. If you show weakness, the Primal can get you. I think it's that simple... which means that no one else can fight Primals because they're all weak minded and weak bodied. We are the only ones who are "strong.

[CyrilLucifer]

This might not actually be the case. It is told to us that the echo shields us from Primal influences; however, we do not have the echo during every Primal Fight. The echo is at low power during both Ravana and Bismark fights, so I don't think that the echo is the sole means of defense against primal influence.

The Echo and the Blessing are completely distinct. I don't remember any mention of your Echo weakening, it is your Blessing that was weakened. Hence why you (and Minfilia) can understand Nabriales when Moenbryda cannot.

[Cilia]

snip

Ohh boy... this is complicated.

The problem with that is that we are the hero, not the protagonist. The two are often conflated, but this isn't always the case.

Spoilies!

G'raha is the protagonist of the CT storyline, but he is not the hero. We are always the hero, but because almost no storyline in the game examines our character or leaves us personally responsible for much of anything that is happening, we are almost never the protagonist. We just beat up whatever is in the way of the real protagonist's / protagonists' way that's preventing them from fulfilling their goals.

Case and point: G'raha. CT is his story about how he was bullied as a child and has sought the reason behind what his father said and his connection to Allag. We help him achieve that goal by exterminating the inhabitants of Syrcus Tower, but that might not necessarily be our goal. NOAH's goal starts out as "for research" and transitions to "to protect the world from someone abusing Syrcus Tower," but the Warrior of Light has no personal investment in how things turn out. (Unless you, the player, come up with one yourself.) Aside from being a giant stick that can be used to whack whatever gets in the way of the protagonist (G'raha) from realizing his goals and getting his character development, we aren't needed.

3.0 has a similar dynamic. Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle form a 3-man band, with Alphinaud as the realist, Estinien as the pessimist, and Ysayle as the idealist. They all have their character development (though Alphinaud's is minimal, given 2.x's ending marked a massive change for his character), and we are along for the ride... but contribute almost nothing to the story except dead bodies. Alphinaud wants to help Ishgard end the Dragonsong War in return for granting us safe haven; in spite of everything thrown at him (and us), we succeed. Estinien wants to end the Dragonsong War because he hates all dragons and wants to kill them, but gradually becomes slightly more idealistic and only does so when it becomes absolutely clear there is no other option. Ysayle starts out as an idealistic "if we excise the Church the dragons will be happy" woman, but later seems to accept that Nidhogg is (or was) a deranged psycho who had to be put down.

If you take out primal fights, the number of times you are personally necessary are extremely small: at the conclusion of your city-state intro quest because there was nobody else around, at the end of the Praetorium because you're the only one bad enough to go toe-to-toe with Gaius and your Blessing lets you take on the Ultima Weapon, against Nabriales because there was no one available, and at the very end of Heavensward because everyone else was busy.

Ultimately, the point is being the hero does not mean we are the the protagonist. To use a pop culture reference, Light Yagami of Death Note is not the hero of his story, yet he is still the protagonist. We just butcher whatever is in the way of the protagonist(s), thus setting the stage for them to fulfill their goals.

The thing is we were hardly that strong when we begun. Maybe if those layabouts came out and levelled with us they'd be able to solo Ifrit too.

Ehh... maybe. But remember that a primal's strength is dependent on the quantity of crystals used to summon it; base Ifrit, for instance, is pathetically weak because he had very few crystals to fuel him, something Nero takes note of after the fight. Once we get to Titan though it's implied that almost nobody has beaten him before; the Company of Heroes did so using human wave tactics and at a heavy loss, and they're all hardened badasses (supposedly...).

snip

Not true. If you rewatch Minfilia and Thancred's debriefing post-Ifrit, they specifically point out that the Echo is what gives you the power to resist tempering. We lose Hydaelyn's Blessing of Light after the Keeper of the Lake, but Middy let us keep the Echo.

[Fenral]

Ohh boy... this is complicated.

The problem with that is that we are the hero, not the protagonist. The two are often conflated, but this isn't always the case.

And the problem with focusing too hard on the rigid distinctions between the two is that the directorial intent in Final Fantasy XIV is rather clearly to conflate them. It's not that I don't generally agree with your analysis, just that the "message" embedded in the work and how it seeks to achieve that are frequently at odds.

It really wants to stress on you, the player, your potential, your responsibility, your importance in shaping the future. At its best, you get Alisaie, who is inspired by your example to understand her own potential. At its worst, you get G'raha, who extols your capabilities while taking actions that deny his own individual worth entirely.

There certainly are stories like 50-60 Miner, where your involvement is shoehorned in at best (and it's not even really about mining), but for the majority you serve as not only a catalyst but a unifying element connecting people and events that would otherwise never be connected, which would keep the story from advancing in the way it does towards that specific conclusion.

Is the only thing keeping those points from connecting a contrivance of the format? Frequently, sure. This is why so many gal game adaptations can scrap the male PoV character entirely: they're merely a necessity of the original format and not integral to the story being told.

At the same time, there are also certain kinds of blank slate hired-muscle PoVs (i.e. Adol Christin) who don't really grow much as characters, but end up with a reputation that becomes crucial to advancing the story and can't simply be removed or transferred. A G'raha who ran around tearing up zombie emperors and first-rung voidsent on his own wouldn't have the inferiority complex that convinced him that sealing himself in the tower was the only way to validate his existence. It would be a different story, arguably a better one.

Final Fantasy XIV leans towards the latter, but instances of the former do still crop up here and there. The Dark Knight analysis is indeed accurate in the broad strokes, but it is merely the most cynical extreme, and not necessarily applicable to every single scenario presented.