Thread: The Dark Divinity 3.0

Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

As Koji explained, Odin was an Allagan warrior who was heading to Eorzea to save Urth (who was not the Allagan hero we thought she was, at least to the Allagan royalty), and during his travels he found Zantetsuken and it consumed him (more or less). He ended up killing Urth, and was later sealed by Wiyu.

So... He found Zantetsuken somewhere between northern Ilsabard and the Shroud on Aldenard. The sword may simply have a traditionally Doman name and so everyone assumed it was a Raen weapon, but it is stated to be an Eikon, so I doubt it was created by anyone of this world.

Thank you. I missed that, I guess.

But we know he wasnt sealed as he is somehow a part of the warring triad which is locked in Azys Lla.

Which kind of makes sense giving the history of the Warring Triad in the FF series. Its by no means certain, buts darn sure near a sure bet given Yoshida's obsession with FF6 that Odin, Wiyu, and Urth are somehow related to Goddess, Demon, and Fiend.

Originally Posted by Harz

Do any primals really have wills of their own?

Technically, yes. They do.

Don't get me wrong, your point about the versions of each Primal manifesting itself as a twisted version of the summoner's wishes is accurate, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a will of their own. The sheer act of tempering implies that each primal does, in fact, have their own will that they can impose upon others. Not only that, every Primal is capable of speech and has desires that do not necessarily match the wishes of their summoners.

Consider Ramuh, for example. The sylphs are afraid of people invading the forest. If they had their way, they'd have Ramuh fry everything that came into the forest (that's made pretty evident from majority of the dialogue we get from both sides of the sylphs), but you don't see him going off and murdering every Garlean or Gridanian he comes across. He has his own set of values and holds a court, passing judgement using logic (mostly, The combat trial thing didn't really fit with his persona, but I guess they needed some excuse for us to actually fight him). He reflects the wishes of his summoners, but he is not a slave to their will. They wanted him to kill us and be done with it. He chose to give us a fair trial.

The story of Bahamut (as well as the dialogue from the coils) made me suspicious that there are more to Primals than their summoners as well. They definitely reflect a twisted version of their summoner's wishes, but they also retain a personality that is distinctly different from that of the original deity they were supposed to be. It's as though they only managed to summon half of the Primal (the bad half).

In either case, every primal shows examples of defying the will of their summoner in favour of expressing their own will at one point or another. More than them seemingly having no will at all and being only what they are summoned, it would seem more likely that they are simply taking advantage of the wishes of those who called on them, which in and of itself would imply they have a will of their own. Personally, I am suspicious that all of the Primals have an origin in Zodiark's circle of influence (The dark side of existence, if you follow the whole Zodiark/Hydelyn thing) and merely take the form of the Primal that suits them best. That would also imply that there is a light side as well that does not manifest (likely the original deity that disappeared long ago).

Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

I fairly certain Urth is dead. Unless Unukhalai is Urth (that would certainly be a twist), Urth probably died during the fall of Allag, or several years later.

The questionable status of Odin, Urth, and Wiyu is what seems to be causing a lot of confusion, actually.

I would have assumed that the three of them are dead as well, given the time period we're talking about; however, there has been a lot of talk about Helix, the warring triad and a possible connection between these three characters. Also, it would not be the first time we've seen people from the Allagan period whom we assumed were dead turn out to be alive and well (Xande, for example).

As far as in-game proof deciding it one way or another, the only thing we have to go on is Odin's dialogue in which he explicitly says he's looking for Urth. It's possible that he thinks he's still back in a time when Urth is still alive, but then why make a comment like "Here I stand, a God among men?" Back in his day, he was simply a warrior (a damn good one, but still), not a God. If he's in the mindset that he's still back in time, than he must have had one hell of an ego... either that, or he really was on the verge of attaining Godhood. That being said, with Allagan technology, it is entirely possible that the three of them are, in fact, still alive and are just sealed up somewhere.

Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Further, the blade is an Eikon, not a Primal. It's something more powerful than a Primal, though that could mean that Odin, being a construct of the blade's power, may actually be considered a Primal under the thrall of the sword-Eikon Zantetsuken.

We've already been through the distinction between "Eikon" and "Primal." You can go back and have a look at that link that was posted a few times. It has the Dev notes in it.

Unukhalai says there is a difference, but the Dev team has explicitly stated, clear as day, that the term "Eikon" is the just an older version of the word "Primal." The distinction between the two seems to be geographical (as Eikon was used by Allagans and Garleans); so, we can infer from this that when Unukhalai says he's referring to Eikon's that we are not acquainted with, the most we can assume is that they are from lands that we are not familiar with yet. Ie: we've never seen any Primals from Allagan history, save for Bahamut, whom they called an Eikon, and we call a Elder Primal, and we certainly don't know of any Garlean Primals, whom the Garleans would also refer to as Eikons as they adopted the term form the Allagans.

Originally Posted by Velox

Snip.

For the most part, yes. This seems to be the chain of events; however there are certain parts we don't know for sure.

1. As you said, we don't know why Urth was against the Allagans (and this is a important mystery for a couple of different reasons)

2. We don't know if Urth calls on Odin, or if Odin simply comes along, or if he was just looking to support an underdog because it would be a better fight, etc. We don't know the relationship between the two.

3. I would say that your account of how Odin got Zantetsuken is probably accurate, based on what little we know about his trip south.

4. However, the timeline of when Odin became possessed is not clear cut. The Dev's say that he "eventually" succumbs to the influence of the cursed blade. Their wording implies that this could have taken a while. Meaning it's just as likely that he could have been helping Urth for a while before he lost his marbles.

5. With that in mind, we don't know that Odin was the one who killed Urth. The Dev's stated that History is written by the victors. Odin was made out to be the bad guy by the Allagans, and they made it seem like they were the ones on Urth's side. For all we know, the Allagan's may have been the one's to kill Urth (if she is, in fact, dead), possibly even Wiyu himself did the deed, and Odin did not succumb to the sword's influence until after. This would actually make canonical sense if we think about the way influences are handled in the game. Consider that Estinien did not fall prey to Nidhogg's influence until after he let his guard down. He felt like he had finally won. He had a moment of emotional weakness, and boom. Nidhogg reared his ugly mug. The same could have happened to Odin. Upon Urth's death/capture, Odin might have finally snapped and probably killed a lot of people (possibly those "followers" of Urth's that we've heard about) before Wiyu finally sealed the blade.

Originally Posted by Februs

Unukhalai says there is a difference, but the Dev team has explicitly stated, clear as day, that the term "Eikon" is the just an older version of the word "Primal."

Here's the exact wording of Fern's post in relation to this:

Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

EXTRA FUN FACT: In the EN version, ‘primal’ is the term that the beast tribes give to the ‘summons’ (the beast tribes believing them to be the gods that created the world and their races). The term 'eikon' has also appeared in the story since 1.X, but this is used almost solely in a derogatory fashion by the Garleans who do not see the summons as deities, but as false gods (icons) who must be destroyed. It turns out that this term ‘eikon’ was, in fact, a term used long ago by the Allagans to describe the powerful summons. It can be assumed that this is where the Garleans got the term, along with other information about the true nature of the otherworldly creatures.

It states that the Garleans use the term eikon "almost solely in a derogatory fashion" to describe "summons". It states that the Allagans used the term eikon "to describe the powerful summons".

Nowhere, however, does it explicitly state that eikon meant the same thing as primal to the Allagans. There's no explanation provided here of what the difference between "powerful summons" and "summons" is. Could it be as simple as powerful summons just being a subset of summons? Certainly. Could it also be something more than that? Given that we know nothing of the nature of how eikons are summoned (if they are summoned at all) and only some information about the nature of how primals are summoned, it seems folly to simply dismiss the possibility.

It's quite possible for Unukhalai's comments to be true while not contradicting what Fern said.

Originally Posted by Ibi

Snip.

The problem is that they are fairly nondescript. All Primals are powerful. Leviathan could summon tsunami's that could wipe out Limsa, for example. If we're assuming that the Eikons are, somehow, more powerful than your average summon, than, at most, we're talking about Elder-Primals.

Currently, the only Primals that have been identified as "Elder-Primals" are Alexander, Bahamut, and Odin. From what we know about Elder-Primals it is safe to assume that they are summoned. The Final coil of Bahamut, as well as the brief history we got concerning him in the 3.0 story line, confirms this (as both Bahamut and Alexander have both been confirmed to have been originally summoned, and sustained by the wished of those summons). Odin is the only odd Primal/eikon out in this regard, as, currently, we have no information about who summoned him or why.

Further, the issue is compounded by the fact that we also are now unclear about which part of Odin is the actual summon. Odin has been the one traditionally identified as the Primal; yet, in recent story developments they have referred to the sword, Zantetsuken, as the Primal. Worse yet, the Dev's have only referred to the sword as a "cursed sword," and not a primal at all. It is easiest to simply say that the sword is a Primal, however, if it is, it has no summoner that we know of (unlike it's fellow Elder Primals) and has no distinct persona (as it always fashions a "Odin body" for itself, and the proceeds to speak through that body as if it is Odin, eternally searching for Urth). The original theory was that Odin had somehow put his soul into the sword, but, if the sword is the Primal than I'm not sure how that would be possible (it would almost seem like reverse-tempering O_o).

Odin his story is extremely odd, but thinking on FATE of Odin the one who beats Odin there is a WoD with protection to be tempered and the same comes back as odin on next FATE, in the case isn't the sword manifestating the strongest being that beat it until it reach the peak of its power through selection after being defeated? Where Odin was never really defeated, but it waits until someone even stronger shows up for it becomes stronger and stronger than its prior versions. In this case Odin is merely toying with everyone trying to reach absolute power by being defeated and taking the one that beat him as a idea where he "summons" that person to be his body and carry Zantetsuken again on battlefield.

So in the end... Whats Odin goal for real?