Thread: The Dark Divinity 3.0

Originally Posted by Berethos

Notice that he doesn't say it's the name used by the Allagans to refer to summoned beings, just simply godlike beings, while also flat out saying he's not talking about the primals we've encountered so far. With Fernhalwes' post for context, it seems he's not 100% in his knowledge of these things, so it has me wondering why he believes they are different enough to be separate beings when according to the lore wrap up transcript they are at least in the same class of beings.

I'm not convinced that they are different at all.

He does explicitly state that there is a difference between Primals and Eikons; however, the little spawn fails to elaborate on any distinction in definition. Consider that "Eikon" simply means: "God like beings." What does "Primal" mean? Also, "God like beings." I don't recall summoning being a part of either definition, but nor is it necessarily absent from either definition. So, really, there is no difference in definition between Eikon or Primal. The only distinction that the spawn makes is that they are god like beings that we have not yet been acquainted with, but that would make sense, given that we have not been to Allag (or at least not seen any summons related to the Allagans except for Bahamut, who, I should point out, was not included in the spawn's list of Primals that we've been acquainted with) or the Garlean Empire.

As far as I can tell, the term "Eikon" is completely interchangeable with "Primal," and that spawn is simply using the term Eikon to refer to primals we have not yet met and are from a different Geographical origin. Basically, it seems to be a geographical distinction only. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When talking about Primals from Allag or Garlea (is that right? Garland? Garleand? I dunno), use the term Eikon.

That being said, I have noticed one distinct difference common to both "Elder Primals" that is not common among the normal Primals we have faced in the MSQ. The spawn (in case you hadn't picked up on this yet, this is the term I use for children, in this case that little masked freak with a long name) talks about the Primals we know in terms of the elements they relate to. All of the Lesser Primals have one or two elements that they are attuned with. Odin, Bahamut, and Alexander (the only three "Elder Primals" that we are currently aware of) do not. They are non-elemental creatures (which is why I pointed out Ark and Ozma earlier. I was trying to think of Powerful non-elemental Summons). That being said, both Bahamut and Alexander have followers who summoned them. Odin is the only odd Primal out.

The part about this that really gets the gears turning is the notion that Odin's true body is locked away somewhere else, and that only the sword was locked in Urth's Fount. If that's true, then it raises the question as to if Odin is, in fact, a Primal/Eikon at all.

This just makes me fall back to my previous theory that Odin is, quite simply, a Super Powered warrior whom, like the Warriors of Light, got so strong he crossed the threshold of attaining God-like powers (hence the term "Eikon" being applied to him). If that's true, than it's not even certain that the sword Zentetsuken is a Primal. The notes only refer to it as being "cursed" and having a corrupting influence.
Possible spoilers for those who have not completed MSQ.

I can see this feeding into the future lore of the story for a couple of reasons:

The first is the notion of the "Warrior of Darkness" who appears at the end of 3.0 MSQ. The Ascion who introduces this warrior does so because he says the balance must be restored. The Warrior of Light has grown too strong, strong enough to cross into the realm of the gods, and that the balance must be kept. Intro Warrior of Darkness.

From this we gain two facts. The first is that it is possible for a mortal to cross the threshold of "God-Like powers." This is pretty much irrefutable. It comes straight from the Ascion's lips and, lets be honest, we've been whopping so-called "God's" butts all up and down their own castles. The second fact is that mortal warriors crossing the threshold of God-like powers can go in one of two ways, Light or Dark. The constant struggle between the two is actually given physical shape in the Dark Knight lvl 50 quest line. So, I'd say it's safe to assume this is part of the lore.

It is possible, lore wise, that Odin really was no different than us, a Warrior crossing the threshold of attaining "God-Like Power," but, when he got to the cusp of crossing the line, he did so using the Dark side of his soul, as he was corrupted by Zantetsuken's influence.

Originally Posted by Februs

The part about this that really gets the gears turning is the notion that Odin's true body is locked away somewhere else, and that only the sword was locked in Urth's Fount. If that's true, then it raises the question as to if Odin is, in fact, a Primal/Eikon at all.

This just makes me fall back to my previous theory that Odin is, quite simply, a Super Powered warrior whom, like the Warriors of Light, got so strong he crossed the threshold of attaining God-like powers (hence the term "Eikon" being applied to him). If that's true, than it's not even certain that the sword Zentetsuken is a Primal. The notes only refer to it as being "cursed" and having a corrupting influence.
Possible spoilers for those who have not completed MSQ.

Wasn't Zantetsuken brought to Eorzea by an au ra?

I have to think it's an eikon, and Odin is a primal summoned by it.

Originally Posted by Daralii

Wasn't Zantetsuken brought to Eorzea by an au ra?

I have to think it's an eikon, and Odin is a primal summoned by it.

As Koji explained, Odin was an Allagan warrior who was heading to Eorzea to save Urth (who was not the Allagan hero we thought she was, at least to the Allagan royalty), and during his travels he found Zantetsuken and it consumed him (more or less). He ended up killing Urth, and was later sealed by Wiyu.

So... He found Zantetsuken somewhere between northern Ilsabard and the Shroud on Aldenard. The sword may simply have a traditionally Doman name and so everyone assumed it was a Raen weapon, but it is stated to be an Eikon, so I doubt it was created by anyone of this world.

Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

As Koji explained, Odin was an Allagan warrior who was heading to Eorzea to save Urth (who was not the Allagan hero we thought she was, at least to the Allagan royalty), and during his travels he found Zantetsuken and it consumed him (more or less). He ended up killing Urth, and was later sealed by Wiyu.

So... He found Zantetsuken somewhere between northern Ilsabard and the Shroud on Aldenard. The sword may simply have a traditionally Doman name and so everyone assumed it was a Raen weapon, but it is stated to be an Eikon, so I doubt it was created by anyone of this world.

Slight correction, he was a 'northern' hero, who came to save Urth from the Allagans.

Originally Posted by Februs

That's difficult to say with certainty as well. It has actually not been blatantly stated that Zantetsuken is a Primal. It has been heavily implied that it is (with the Dark Divinity story line), but there has been no official statement that I know of that says it is for sure.The only official word I've seen on the topic has stated that Odin is an Elder Primal... but now it seems he may not be and has a body in hibernation somewhere. Everything has gotten turned around lately. As far as Zantetsuken is concerned, the only notes I've seen on it were in that thread that someone posted above, and even in that the developer states that it is a "cursed sword" that corrupted Odin.

Right now, it is the safest bet to assume that it is a Primal. It certainly answers the most questions if we assume that it is; however, there is still a lot more unexplained questions if we assume that Zantetsuken is the Primal. Namely, why does it seem to have no will of it's own? As soon as it makes itself an Odin copy, the copy takes over. This Primal seems to have no objective or goal of it's own. The Odin copy wants to find Urth, but the Zantetsuken has no voice and does nothing but allow Odin to wield it. Further, who summoned it originally and why does it seem to have an unbreakable bond to Odin? (it never looks like anyone else. That's why I said Spirit bond, cuz' I got no other idea as to why Odin and Zantetsuken are so strongly tied to one another.)

Also, Urth is not dead. Odin is still looking for her... but he also, supposedly, is sealed somewhere. So, there's a lot of ambiguity as to why a copy of Odin would still be seeking Urth, especially if that copy is actually a Primal.

Do any primals really have wills of their own?

Take Titan for instance, the Kobolds' vision of Titan is a benevolent father figure who protects them from harm, and that's what he does.
Garuda, from what I recall, is supposedly responsible for taking away the Ixal's wings (though we know this isn't true,) and only by appeasing her can the Ixal ever regain the ability fly. Garuda thus manifests as a cruel and greedy goddess demanding loyalty and tribute from her subjects.

Primals are what the summoner makes of them. It's feasable that whomever created zanketsuken in the first place could have been attempting to create an ultimate weapon for himself, and in his vanity conjured a sword that endlessly seeks out a perfect warrior to wield it.

I suppose this all falls well within the realm of ancient aliens in egypt being possible though.

Originally Posted by Harz

Do any primals really have wills of their own?

Technically, yes. They do.

Don't get me wrong, your point about the versions of each Primal manifesting itself as a twisted version of the summoner's wishes is accurate, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a will of their own. The sheer act of tempering implies that each primal does, in fact, have their own will that they can impose upon others. Not only that, every Primal is capable of speech and has desires that do not necessarily match the wishes of their summoners.

Consider Ramuh, for example. The sylphs are afraid of people invading the forest. If they had their way, they'd have Ramuh fry everything that came into the forest (that's made pretty evident from majority of the dialogue we get from both sides of the sylphs), but you don't see him going off and murdering every Garlean or Gridanian he comes across. He has his own set of values and holds a court, passing judgement using logic (mostly, The combat trial thing didn't really fit with his persona, but I guess they needed some excuse for us to actually fight him). He reflects the wishes of his summoners, but he is not a slave to their will. They wanted him to kill us and be done with it. He chose to give us a fair trial.

The story of Bahamut (as well as the dialogue from the coils) made me suspicious that there are more to Primals than their summoners as well. They definitely reflect a twisted version of their summoner's wishes, but they also retain a personality that is distinctly different from that of the original deity they were supposed to be. It's as though they only managed to summon half of the Primal (the bad half).

In either case, every primal shows examples of defying the will of their summoner in favour of expressing their own will at one point or another. More than them seemingly having no will at all and being only what they are summoned, it would seem more likely that they are simply taking advantage of the wishes of those who called on them, which in and of itself would imply they have a will of their own. Personally, I am suspicious that all of the Primals have an origin in Zodiark's circle of influence (The dark side of existence, if you follow the whole Zodiark/Hydelyn thing) and merely take the form of the Primal that suits them best. That would also imply that there is a light side as well that does not manifest (likely the original deity that disappeared long ago).

Originally Posted by Februs

SNIP.

I fairly certain Urth is dead. Unless Unukhalai is Urth (that would certainly be a twist), Urth probably died during the fall of Allag, or several years later.

Further, the blade is an Eikon, not a Primal. It's something more powerful than a Primal, though that could mean that Odin, being a construct of the blade's power, may actually be considered a Primal under the thrall of the sword-Eikon Zantetsuken.