i got a question for you dps..

[Grimm08]

Snip.

As someone who raids as a high damage Dragoon, I have never EVER had to use elusive jump in an opener, on top of that, I run dungeons as a tank, and I can agree entirely with this post. If the dps is subpar or medium range, I pull in Deliverance and have no problem holding hate, but if I know someone is good, I'll get a full Butcher's Block combo off in Defiance, switch to Deliverance in time for Fell Cleave and have no issue whatsoever keeping aggro. So unless it is strictly an issue with being under geared (even full VIT gear is fine, I've done it), you're doing something wrong as a tank.

[JackFross]

As someone who raids as a high damage Dragoon, I have never EVER had to use elusive jump in an opener, on top of that, I run dungeons as a tank, and I can agree entirely with this post. If the dps is subpar or medium range, I pull in Deliverance and have no problem holding hate, but if I know someone is good, I'll get a full Butcher's Block combo off in Defiance, switch to Deliverance in time for Fell Cleave and have no issue whatsoever keeping aggro. So unless it is strictly an issue with being under geared (even full VIT gear is fine, I've done it), you're doing something wrong as a tank.

I had to use Elusive Jump in my opener every run of T7 progression until my Warrior finally learned to git gud and stop losing hate to me. Since then, I've had no issues, either aside from when my MT derps and forgets Shield Oath or Grit, in which case that boss is mine by a mile before he gets to the end of his first enmity combo. In DF, though, I don't expect other Tanks to have undergone my Trial By Fire, so I expect to pull hate off bad tanks in boss fights. I still don't use Elusive Jump, because I have more defense and health than a fresh 60 tank in 145 whites, full-vit spec.


The "My Tank is Undergeared" defense is ludicrous, by the way, so let's stop using that. I even tested this myself. I contracted the best Dragoon I knew at the time (who I was actually friends with) alongside my bff Scholar friend to come do Titan HM with me as Warrior wearing item level 60 gear near the end of SCoB progression. The Dragoon was full 110 with his Gae Bolg Nexus (115). I was i60 with my i60 axe from Ifrit HM. He never used Elusive Jump, because I asked him not to. I never once struggled with hate - in fact no one ever even came *CLOSE* to pulling off me, especially as the fight went on. As I recall, I was wearing full VIT, as well, because I was shitting my pants about Mountain Buster one-shotting me;;; thankfully i110 Adloquiums can save your ass! C:

That was a 50 item level difference. I had no issues. The problem isn't - and never was - gear difference. The problem is people not understanding their job and therefore doing it poorly.. When you're outgeared, you need to focus on enmity generation over dps. You shouldn't try and be a cool Sword Oath paladin against i190 dps while you're rocking i145 whites. You're playing wrong if you do. Similarly, you shouldn't be running Shield Oath and using GB>RA>RA. It should be GB>RoH>RoH until you actually build a buffer.

Yes, tanks have a secondary job to do as much dps as they can, but this job is codified as: "Tanks should dish out as much dps as they can while maintaining enmity on all targets they are tasked with holding." The bolded part is called your main job. If you can't do that, stop trying to do more dps. That's basically it. That's the whole discussion. In short~


If you're losing hate to the dps as a tank, here's what you do:

Stop blaming your gear.
Stop blaming the "bad dps who pull hate off me"
Start re-evaluating what you're doing and how you can do it better.

Every tank has options to enhance their enmity generation. You just have to actually use them. And use them properly.

[RiceisNice]

...

You'd have to remember the gear discrepancy where ilvl 50 between 60-110 is not the same as it is here in 3.0, especially in regards to weapon damage. i60-110 for DRG had a difference of 12 weapon damage, Ilvl 147 (being generous here, this is a weapon drop in library) to 180 (upgraded law) is 10 with a difference of 37. Not saying you're wrong, and it held true back then, but 3.0 realistically speaking, outside of stat boosts, tanks have gotten no additional tools specifically to help them with enmity, while dps has gotten more ways to deal damage, especially burst damage or maintain said burst damage, that overgearing (especially for the likes of expert or singularity reactor for a fresh 60), coupled with other circumstances, can make it troubling to hold aggro against very good dps.

[JackFross]

All very good points. I'll have to run a level 60 test again to see if my nonsense still holds true! Gonna try running the Expert dungeon drops against current-geared raid dragoons and see how that works out.

[Kabooa]

.

Should have tried it as a paladin. Warrior is and was the king of threat, and Paladin I believe got a boost sometime in late 2.4 or 3.0 to their base threat generation.

[Veralidaine]

This is like totally habit for me, like using a turn signal. If I even see yellow on my enmity bar I pop quelling strikes. Sometimes I will mess up and tunnel something I'm not, that's my fault and quelling saves me. Other times I just go all out too fast for the tank. I don't see why dps wouldn't use the skills given to them.

[Jim_Berry]

I have a question for DPS as well, coming from a DPS (NIN):

Lately, there seems to be a trend of bad attitudes within the DPS community. Some of them have the attitude that, since we're in Duty Finder, they don't give a squat about the rest of the group. As an example of one scenario, I was leveling my thenLv59 PLD in Library earlier. We wiped twice after not killing the adds on the final boss; the BRD and NIN was not helping me and the SCH step on the pads.

On the third round, the SCH began to ask if the DPS could assist with the mechanics. The NIN said "i don need no stinking mechanics" followed by the BRD pulling. When the dual-man pads come up, I had to use Sprint to clear it with the SCH. After they were lit, I asked for TP twice. Neither the BRD nor NIN gave it to me. I then asked why no Gaod or Paeon. The BRD said he don't need it. The NIN never responded.

What is in the air that people are sniffing that are making them hateful players in the game?

[Jim_Berry]

Yes, tanks have a secondary job to do as much dps as they can, but this job is codified as: "Tanks should dish out as much dps as they can while maintaining enmity on all targets they are tasked with holding." The bolded part is called your main job. If you can't do that, stop trying to do more dps. That's basically it. That's the whole discussion.

I maintain enmity but suck at dps'ing on my tank. What does that say about me, then? I'm a crappy tank, or a tank that's good at being a tank? And yes, I only do VIT gear, and stay in tank stance because of being a tank, yo.

Every tank has options to enhance their enmity generation. You just have to actually use them. And use them properly.
The messed up part is, when a tank is using his/her enmity generation properly, they get a thumbs down for not excelling at doing damage. I really don't understand the community anymore.

Note my bolded comments.

[JackFross]

Mmm. When I say using your enmity generation properly, I mean using *just enough* to maintain threat and then focusing on dps after that point. Any Paladin who is full VIT Spec (already makes me vomit) and runs a rotation of GB>RoH>RoH in Shield Oath at all times is really, really bad at playing their class.

Please note what I said, again, and try to actually... contextualize it?

"Tanks should dish out as much dps as they can while maintaining enmity on all targets they are tasked with holding."

Notice that once you've achieved your main goal (bolded), the only way to get better is to achieve the second goal. It's the same for a DPS class -

"DPS should deal enough damage to clear an encounter [as fast as possible.]"

If you already achieve the bit outside the brackets, to get better, you need to focus on the bracketed bit. Figure out how to do MORE damage than you already are. Yes, it's an issue of game design that EVERY ROLE AND EVERY JOB can be broken down to "do your main job and then get better by DOING MORE DAMAGE" but that's the way the game is designed. If you don't like it, there's other games out there that don't work this way. :\

[RiceisNice]

Note my bolded comments.

There's also other situations of this. A tank can easily maintain aggro on single target by spamming RoH. This ultimately boils down to the same point of healers that can dps when the outgoing damage is incredible low, or your regen/fairy can sustain.