i got a question for you dps..

[karateorangutang]

Warrior has the largest burst enmity of all three tanks, especially if you pull in Defiance with Unchained.

Even if not, it's possible that - pitted against a top tier Bard/Machinist (with no Quelling) or Dragoon, the three burstiest dps classes, you might find yourself struggling to hold hate as any non-warrior, while maintaining max dps. Butcher's Block is part of Warrior DPS. Power Slash and Rage of Halone are not.

While this might be true its hardly the norm though.

This post would have you believe that no tank in DF parties can keep hate for 10 seconds... which is simply not the case.

[JackFross]

I meant to include that I'm referring to all three tanks in non-tank stances in ST fights. Sword Oath, No-Grit, Deliverance. If a tank loses hate in tank stance, they're fundamentally doing it wrong and need to go back to tank school, gear differential or no.

Raids are a (slightly) different story, because healer aggro is real.

[Egnasya]

Sword Oath, No-Grit, Deliverance. If a tank loses hate in tank stance, they're fundamentally doing it wrong and need to go back to tank school, gear differential or no.

Have to say that's my oberservation as well after going out of my way to actually level and play a tank for real, for a change. I find it nearly impossible to lose aggro, even when undergeared, as long as I keep mindful of what's going on and use the proper abilities in every situation. In that case it would really boil down to tanks not playing correctly if they keep losing aggro, and that is something the game teaches you by exactly that - in other words, continued aggro loss is a slight reminder from the game that you're doing something wrong. One might call it teaching mechanic.


Apart from that I don't think that mind set that a tank has to play perfectly while everyone else is allowed to slack pays off in the end. That's just disrespectful of fellow players in an environment in which we are supposed to play together. So a tank loses aggro to DPS, yea? What that usually results in is, the DPS hates the tank, the tank and the healer hate the DPS. So much hate for nothing. Tell you what if I really lose a mob as a tank I'm indifferent. I see that I get it back if it's worth it, otherwise it dies few seconds later anyway, who cares if it hits someone? They're not made of paper just as well. If I pull aggro as DPS I'm indifferent, I either manage to kill that thing in time or it kills me and goes back to tank, fair game. I wouldn't get upset about it. As a healer... well you're the one cleaning up the mess of others anyway, you basically signed up for that.

But here's the catch - all that is normal. All that may very well happen. And you're asked to adapt to that, not complain about it, for your own sake, not the sake of someone you'll probably never see again. Just keep cool. Nobody's really gonna be hurt even if you wipe to a chain of mistakes and misunderstandings. Because that's all it is. Mistakes and misunderstandings. Happens all the time, everywhere in our lives. No reason to get all worked up.

[JackFross]

^ Pretty much exactly that is how I feel. The game is a team exercise. The tank SHOULD be able to hold hate, yes, but you as a DPS should also know how to NOT pull hate off the tank. Every class has aggro management skills. If you're regularly pulling off your DF tank, just hold quelling and use it during the burst in your opener on the boss. Use Elusive Jump to drop hate. Throw Shadewalker at your tank on the pull. (Purposelyignoresmonkaggroproblems)

Basically, if you ARE a tank, you shouldn't have issues with hate. If your tank DOES have issues, just adjust to play with them. My policy is always strictly DBAA.


Though. I WILL say that the most infuriating situation I have ever encountered was a Warrior who tanked in Deliverance, pulled sub-600, and couldn't hold hate. Like. Your one job as a tank is to hold aggro. If you wanna do DPS, sure, fine, go for it. But if your DPS is nothing to write home about AND you can't hold hate? Just turn on tank stance until you can do what you want to do, basically. From i145 until around i165, I tanked bosses in Shield Oath, because I didn't trust my defense in Sword Oath and was worried I wouldn't be able to hold hate. Gotta know your limits.

[Malevicton]

Not every class has aggro management skills. But I guess since you specified you were purposely ignoring that, it's okay to pretend that's not the case...?

Honestly I'm not gonna slow down dps to let the tank hold hate. I'll use quelling, but I'm not gonna slow down. If I outgear you, I'm gonna pull, just don't take it personally. It's just math. There's no reason for me not to rip hate except your ego, and that only matters if you're going to assume it's an insult when it's not.

[ExiaQuanta]

I think square should just change quelling strike to a enmity lower like skill rather than lowering enmity generated. Cause as soon as that skill is over, Aggro goes right back up to where it was before quelling strike.

[Cligue]

I don't even have quelling strikes spec'd since all my cross class skills are already used as mch... Raging strikes, blood for blood, invigorate, hawks eye, and feint. Sorry.

[Hieral]

Because when we obviously get ready for the next trash pack, I pop Quelling Strikes and you randomly afk, leading to a wasted cool down. Same reason nobody likes to use cool downs until we're knee deep in trash.

Except those pesky healers who regen right at the start of or right before an obvious pull. They're just noobs.

[Shurrikhan]

If they're doing it less often than every 2-3 minutes, in certain circumstances where there's no way you could open up enmity as fast as they could... it's probably because they're being foolish and/or think about how to assist mob movement (or 'tanking').

When it's consistent... because they're impatient and/or QS/EJ has too long a cooldown, or perhaps you're opening with Goring, Storm, or Soul/Del when you have too few oGCDs or too little attack power to actually hold threat during that method of opening.

(I often early pull as a dps. I just don't get hit more than once in the process, and by the time the tank reaches the mobs, s/he has threat on them.)

As DRG I often single target a key mob while the BLM/SMN AoEs. This usually isn't necessary any more often that EJ, so all good with a stored Dive to get back. When I'm the BLM/SMN, QS. Aside from it being wasteful for both to ST or their being too much urgency for both to AoE, threat reducers shouldn't be needed. If you're expecting them to pop QS for anything more than their popping every CD they have while you don't have any offensive CDs of your own and/or their attacking in a different manner than the other dps, pushing both ST and AoE extremes at once, you might just be doing too little enmity.

[Grimm08]

One of the major problems is that tanks are focusing on their dps combo, trying to pump out more damage, instead of starting with an enmity combo or two as they should be. That's what it's there for. As a dragoon with a fairly high burst opener, I have NEVER had to even think of using Elusive Jump unless the tank was starting that way. So before any more tanks go whining about dps taking their aggro, think about what you're doing instead of blaming us.