How to keep old contents relevant

[SendohJin]

i don't get why they are so afraid of crafting and the economy.

you know what was good, the original relic quest that got your i80 weapon.

it's a quest so that you still have to kill stuff, you have mats that drop from a dungeon, you have materia that is obtained by spiritbonding. you mix all the parts of the game to make something useful. and you can have a lot of that stuff sold on the marketboard so lazy people don't have to get everything themselves.

the best items in the game should be made from trade-ins, that require 1 drop from difficult content + 1 crafted piece.

the crafted piece should use materials from
- folklore gathering OR aetherial reduction
- DF chest drop
- NPC catalyst

any 2 of
- treasure map drop
- hunt seal trade-in
- uncapped tomestone trade-in
- desynthesis
- rare FATE trade-in (Odin, Behemoth, Coeurlregina, etc)

[Colorful]

snip

Yeah, no thanks. I don't play to farm gil or craft, those are just things I don't personally enjoy. Some crafters charge over a 150-300% markup on items, part of that blame lies on SE due to the costly nature of leveling and gearing those classes, but there's still some greedy crafters out there. Can't say I blame them though, gil is gil. I'd be fine if I could obtain the item through normal progression, and then pay a crafter (or ask an friend who has crafters leveled up) 50-100k, that's something I can make in less than an hour of killing mobs, but otherwise I'm completely against the idea. I really don't understand why crafters want a hand in PvE progression so much, gil? That can't be it, I constantly hear about them making 100s of millions of gil even after Heavensward launched. I mean, PvE players do PvE activities to progress their PvE classes. Why can't dedicated crafters be satisfied with that?

This is very off topic though. How to make content relevant? Throw it into a roulette and add Esoterics, simple as that. Primal EX roulette would require prior completion of all Extremes, and possibly only have outdated primals (1+ patch old). Same for CT and future 24 man raids, Alexander and future normal mode raids, etc.

[SendohJin]

Yeah, no thanks. I don't play to farm gil or craft

you don't have to farm gil or craft, make some friends. and you get to clear content to progress. FATEs, Tomestones, Seals, DF drops, Treasure Maps are all acquired from PVE content.

I mean, PvE players do PvE activities to progress their PvE classes. Why can't dedicated crafters be satisfied with that?

because PVE content is where 90% of the development cost goes to. "dedicated crafting" has almost no content.

This is very off topic though. How to make content relevant? Throw it into a roulette and add Esoterics

Esoterics is too easy to cap as it is. that's a completely useless suggestion.

[Colorful]

you don't have to farm gil or craft, make some friends. and you get to clear content to progress. FATEs, Tomestones, Seals, DF drops, Treasure Maps are all acquired from PVE content.

I did already consider asking a friend, but if everyone were to ask their crafter friend what would its purpose serve exactly? Why not just have the ability to turn it into a NPC with the other item? Or is it just that is what the system is currently, but instead of improving how it's obtained, they introduce further RNG and needlessly shove crafters into it? That doesn't seem like a solution for either side to me.

because PVE content is where 90% of the development cost goes to. "dedicated crafting" has almost no content.

And how would a material obtained from PvE content add content to crafting classes? All I can see it doing is funneling more gil into their pockets, what purpose does it serve? If they want to utilize PvE drops in crafting, then it's already possible with gear that isn't the best of the best, and those things sell tons (hell I make the majority of my gil selling random drops to crafters). Should crafters be able to make better gear slightly weaker than Eso (or on par with un-upgraded eso if it's very costly), sure. But the best gear? No, the best gear should be obtained from PvE and solely from PvE. I'm sure the majority of crafters wouldn't appreciate it if they had to run Alexander Savage to obtain their AF2 gear.

Esoterics is too easy to cap as it is. that's a completely useless suggestion.

No, it gives variety to obtaining Esoterics and allows people to pick and choose what content they wish to do. That means more people queuing for all content, and not just whatever raid happens to have the particular item that's needed. It also doesn't lead to frustration over running content you don't want to do.

[SendohJin]

but if everyone were to ask their crafter friend what would its purpose serve exactly?

the purpose is to make this one game, not 3 different ones. DoW and DoH and DoL are all part of the same game. don't ask your "crafter friend", ask your raid Healer to do it because your Healer also crafts.

Why not just have the ability to turn it into a NPC with the other item?

that's what the last step is.

but instead of improving how it's obtained, they introduce further RNG and needlessly shove crafters into it? That doesn't seem like a solution for either side to me.

there could be less RNG this way.

I'm sure the majority of crafters wouldn't appreciate it if they had to run Alexander Savage to obtain their AF2 gear.

they don't have to run Savage if they don't want to, they can buy the mat from someone who does. you keep saying how they hoard gil, this is how people who like to raid can get gil back from people who don't raid and spend more of their time crafting.

the point is for people like you to stop talking about it as if Crafters can't do Raids and Raiders can't craft. both of those things are obviously not true and obviously not how this game is designed.

and Raiders don't need to do FATEs, and Raiders don't do Treasure Maps, and Raiders don't do Hunts. the suggestion is to get more people to do more things, so that less people complain about no content.

It also doesn't lead to frustration over running content you don't want to do.

that's what gil should be for.

[Colorful]

the purpose is to make this one game, not 3 different ones. DoW and DoH and DoL are all part of the same game. don't ask your "crafter friend", ask your raid Healer to do it because your Healer also crafts.

I said crafter friend because he just happens to mostly do crafting while doing one DREX a day on his main. As it stands, it is "one game", crafters can make a lot of things players utilize. Gear, glamour and furniture are all very valuable and sell quite fast.

there could be less RNG this way.

Explain how it's less RNG when instead of hoping your token or gear piece drops, you now have to hope it drops and hope the material drops too? That's not even the end of it, you'll have to roll against several other players for the material.

the point is for people like you to stop talking about it as if Crafters can't do Raids and Raiders can't craft. both of those things are obviously not true and obviously not how this game is designed.

I'm entirely aware of that, but a lot of complaints about being unable to produce the best PvE gear have been made by those who mostly crafter, but this is from my own experience so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

and Raiders don't need to do FATEs, and Raiders don't do Treasure Maps, and Raiders don't do Hunts. the suggestion is to get more people to do more things, so that less people complain about no content.

There's plenty of content in this game, it's just people don't want to do it. I myself don't want to do Treasure Maps or FATEs, I don't want to log in and feel like "Time to work on this chore I have because SE decided it's better to force content on players!". The lack of content comes from how it's too spread out and not focused on 2-3 parts, not the overall game. Locking these drops behind those things will get them to participate in the content, sure. But is that fun for them? The most likely answer is no, FATEs are tedious and lack any semblance of a proper challenge, the same can be said for Treasure Maps. I did find them the most fun option for making gil back in early 3.0 though, but as of now you're almost guaranteed to lose money on them. But again, I know many people who don't enjoy that content. Forcing Hunts was bad enough (Treasure Maps > Hunts though).

that's what gil should be for.

I still can't see how this would be beneficial to anyone but crafters, and it would only further the RMT problem.

At the end all I can say is we clearly have two different opinions on how it should be done and they likely won't budge, so there's no point in talking about this further. But my opinion on it is the best gear should not rely on crafters whatsoever, penta melded gear? Sure. But drops from Alexander Normal, Savage, Esoterics or Extreme Primals? Nope.

How would you feel if the dungeons were not quite so farmable, you could not run them so quickly (because they retain some difficulty, not simply because of artificial speed-bumps that prevent mass pulls), but the drops were better/drop at a better rate? That way you would not run the content so many times or so often, and there would be more challenge to that content.

The way I see it if we could do something to reduce the frequency with which these dungeons are run, but increase the worth of doing them appropriately, we would refuce fatigue and burnout, and reduce the feeling of it being a chore.

What low level dungeons are actually difficult at minimum ilvl sync? I don't consider things taking forever to kill challenging, and if anything that would increase the feeling of it being a chore, especially since we have only a bit of our abilities. As for your other idea of adding a new difficulty, that's not keeping old content relevant. That's replacing old content further increasing queue times for the original, which is one of the only reasons SE keeps old content relevant. I'd also much prefer those development sources be allocated into bringing up the level 51-59 dungeons to level 60 and throwing them in the EX roulette. That would also give variety to the PvE endgame which is lacking in almost every department, and it would also be "new" content that came with the release of Heavensward so it would be fresh.

How much times have I don't the Vault, the Library, or the Aery? 5-15 times maybe. 2.0 dungeons? I've done some of them so many times that I never want to step foot in those ever again. They're incredibly boring (as mentioned earlier, lack of abilities), bosses have no interesting mechanics or require you to actively dodge on the level of something like the Vault, and are just all around sub-par in comparison to Heavensward dungeons. If we're talking 2.1+, then yeah they're better as the patches go on, but I've still run those on roulette so many times, as opposed to the Heavensward leveling dungeons.

[Fevelle]

Esoterics is too easy to cap as it is. that's a completely useless suggestion.

Law is easy. Esoterics is kinda normal. We have a cap anyway, so the capping time is kinda irrelevant.