Be The Very Best! Become THE TANK!

[Alahra]

Once the tank hits a target, the DPS should be attacking it immediately.

Instances in which the tank needs to position the target in some fashion makes this attitude problematic. This can apply to pulling large groups, bosses that need to be moved into a more favorable position, and even on some single trash pulls, grouping the mobs for AoE.

[SlyRoyale]

Instances in which the tank needs to position the target in some fashion makes this attitude problematic. This can apply to pulling large groups, bosses that need to be moved into a more favorable position, and even on some single trash pulls, grouping the mobs for AoE.

Positioning and big pulls are the only exceptions I can think of that take priority over a swift attack. Even then, a tank should be ready for anything. It's something I got used to when tanking for overzealous DPS.

[Alahra]

Positioning and big pulls are the only exceptions I can think of that take priority over a swift attack. Even then, a tank should be ready for anything. It's something I got used to when tanking for overzealous DPS.

They should be ready, yes, but DPS should also work *with* the tank, not against him.

[Heatkrieg]

There's a thread in the tank section on how a DRK should not be using his power slash combo aside from the initial pull. I can't tell you the number of times I've come across tanks (not just DRKs) who think they can get away with using their AOE once, then go into DPS mode only to realize that they're losing aggro on mobs left and right. If you're a good DPS, chances are you're hovering right below the tank's aggro level on the mob. If s/he breaks contact or decides to forgo their enmity generation combo, for a few GCDs, you WILL pull aggro and your tank will have to struggle to get it back.

The issue tends to be worse when doing higher raid content with VIT build tanks. I've tanked Faust in A1S as a DRG more than I have as a DRK because the MT decided it was ok to use Goring Blade (PLD), Souleater (DRK) or Storm's Eye (WAR) instead of their enmity combos during my opener.

[MistakeNot]

I ran into this problem yesterday - as the tank.

Did a level 15 guildheist as a fresh Marauder who had just reached the right level for the heist.
One of the DPS guys (a Machinist I think - which would mean his base level was much higher than mine) managed to grab aggro from me and I just was not able to get it back no matter what I tried.

We did finish the heist reasonably quickly with no KO, so no real harm done, but it was disconcerting to be unable to get aggro as a tank even when spamming my enemity-generating attacks.

I suspect the reason was simply that he had much better gear than I had - since I was still levelling I did not have very good gear yet.

[Greyfrost]

As for lower level runs, I'd just have to agree that tanks don't have their full kit for holding aggro just yet (Tank stance), meanwhile as a DPS, you can cross class BFB/IR and get a spike in their DPS.

My experience as a DPS in higher level runs vary, from one tank that can hold aggro on big pulls, numbering 6-10 mobs, to tanks that can't hold anything.

At first pull if I notice that the tank can't hold aggro very well (DPSes rip aggro constantly on single/AoE), I'll just give him more time to get and keep said aggro.

Although this is a bad practice, because imo, in higher level when tanks should've gotten all their kits, it should be a given that they can take and keep aggro for as long as they want it to be.

All in all, as long as it doesn't cause a wipe, I don't really take it to heart, I rip aggro most of the time on my BLM/DRG.

[Kuwagami]

I'm actually calling you out for advocating bad DPS practices. A DPS shouldn't have to wait for a couple of GCDs for a tank to secure aggro. Once the tank hits a target, the DPS should be attacking it immediately. As for low level tanks having aggro issues against higher level DPS, all the tank has to do is prioritize enmity generation over their own DPS to make up for the level and gear disparity should they have trouble. That's all there is to it.

aggro management is a work for the whole group. If your tank can't keep up your hate generation because you overgear them, you have to slow down dps. If they aren't grossly undergeared compared to you, you can also tell them to get good.

[AniCelestine]

Not sure If didn't read OP or just want your biased opinion to be heard.

I'm actually calling you out for advocating bad DPS practices. A DPS shouldn't have to wait for a couple of GCDs for a tank to secure aggro. Once the tank hits a target, the DPS should be attacking it immediately. As for low level tanks having aggro issues against higher level DPS, all the tank has to do is prioritize enmity generation over their own DPS to make up for the level and gear disparity should they have trouble. That's all there is to it.

Here

Seriously, this is getting out of hand. It's not fun to do your best as DPS only to get mauled or become THE TANK. I've ended up in this situation even in level 60 dungeons.

This part suggests that some tank's are below the skill level needed to hold aggro as you in your posts rant about.

Also

Running with just lvl59 dungeon gear as a tank vs fully i190+ some eso gear dps is quite impossible and you can't get the tomestones to buy the i170 gear so well without running the said dungeon over and over again (unless you want to wait few days to gear up with roulets, but is that fair to new players who just hit 60 to having to wait to be able to gear up faster when you didn't have to wait when there was no such big gap with everyones gear when 3.0 launched?)
This point could also be understood from the post I quoted above

BUT listen here.

The 3.0 patch didn't speed up any of the low level content. In fact it made it even more unbearable. Why? Because before 3.0 the level sync made players equal to normal quality level, after 3.0 it's high quality, making everyone overleveled and overgeared stronger while giving underleveled players especially tanks nothing. Yet to no surprise the only thing it sped up was how quick DPS can over power the tank.

All of it is so bad to the point I automatically assume the next tank I'm stuck with will fail, especially paladins!

And I'm not OK with that!

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I'm fairly 100% sure that OP is talking about the gear's level sync alongside the players lvl sync that makes it in some cases (pld pre lvl40 and any under 30 dungeons) near impossible to keep aggro unless you are geared with the highest gear and you're at the lvl cap for the said dungeon you're tanking. For which Yesui gave a solution of letting the tank get a little leeway before going full dps mode,or just tone down your pace/keep eye on enmity indicators etc etc.

Sure, you are right with the "git gud tanks" but when there is nothing to be done other than running yourself out of tp/mp while tanking one pull to not lose agro so you have to wait for the mp and/or tp to get back to be able to do the same for the next 20 pulls (which is really slow) is game design fault not player skill.

Edit: This is spot on.

aggro management is a work for the whole group. If your tank can't keep up your hate generation because you overgear them, you have to slow down dps. If they aren't grossly undergeared compared to you, you can also tell them to get good.

MMOs are teamwork games in the end. If people aren't performing to the max on their class they gotta be told to get good. If it's game design fault, you gotta work as a team to get around it until fixed

[SlyRoyale]

They should be ready, yes, but DPS should also work *with* the tank, not against him.

Agreed. As a DPS, I find that should I be building too much aggro on one mob, I'll switch over to a mob I have less aggro on (if my enmity reduction abilities are on cooldown) to make it easier for the tank. If I end up stealing aggro, I either help the tank take it off me by bringing it to them while DPSing the other mobs in the meantime. Worst case scenario: I just burst down the mob before it becomes a problem. As long as a DPS is smart about it, they can find ways to keep pushing out damage without having to slow down.

Edited this late due to falling asleep and spending time playing the game today.

aggro management is a work for the whole group. If your tank can't keep up your hate generation because you overgear them, you have to slow down dps. If they aren't grossly undergeared compared to you, you can also tell them to get good.

Or you can:

1) Use enmity management abilities.
2) Switch to a different mob you don't have much aggro on.
3) Burst down the mob before it becomes a problem.

Waiting for more than at least one GCD for the tank to establish aggro is not only disallowing a DPS to perform their job, it is also catering to an underperforming tank. There are ways for a DPS to manage their aggro without having to stop or slow down.

Not sure If didn't read OP or just want your biased opinion to be heard.

It's less of a "biased opinion" and more of a fact. Having played both roles for an extensive amount of time, here is what I expect from both accounts:

Tank: I expect the DPS to hold nothing back unless I'm doing a huge pull or positioning a mob during the pull.
DPS: I expect the tank to establish initial aggro with their enmity pull so I can start doing my thing.

Here

This part suggests that some tank's are below the skill level needed to hold aggro as you in your posts rant about.

Also

Running with just lvl59 dungeon gear as a tank vs fully i190+ some eso gear dps is quite impossible and you can't get the tomestones to buy the i170 gear so well without running the said dungeon over and over again (unless you want to wait few days to gear up with roulets, but is that fair to new players who just hit 60 to having to wait to be able to gear up faster when you didn't have to wait when there was no such big gap with everyones gear when 3.0 launched?)
This point could also be understood from the post I quoted above

BUT listen here.

I don't know about you or anyone else, but I'm fairly 100% sure that OP is talking about the gear's level sync alongside the players lvl sync that makes it in some cases (pld pre lvl40 and any under 30 dungeons) near impossible to keep aggro unless you are geared with the highest gear and you're at the lvl cap for the said dungeon you're tanking. For which Yesui gave a solution of letting the tank get a little leeway before going full dps mode,or just tone down your pace/keep eye on enmity indicators etc etc.

Holding aggro against higher-geared DPS isn't impossible, but it is noticeably more difficult. Even with gear disparity and level synced players, a tank is capable of holding aggro on every mob provided they focus on enmity generation to make up for the difference, along with DPS using their enmity reduction abilities and rotating to another mob if they're building too much aggro on the one they were attacking. As for tanks deciding to spam dungeons or do roulettes for tomes to buy gear, that is up to their discretion. It's more about choice than fairness.

Sure, you are right with the "git gud tanks" but when there is nothing to be done other than running yourself out of tp/mp while tanking one pull to not lose agro so you have to wait for the mp and/or tp to get back to be able to do the same for the next 20 pulls (which is really slow) is game design fault not player skill.

If a pull takes that long for a tank to run dry, it is more of a DPS issue than a resource management issue. When managed smartly, a tank can hold aggro without exhausting themselves even when undergeared compared to others. If they have to, then the DPS are too slow. If anything, the only game design issue I can think of is The Great Gubal Library allowing Lv. 60s to run the dungeon without restriction, but even then a fair majority of Lv. 59 jobs queue for it so you hardly see a Lv. 60 unless you got a pre-made helping a friend out.

MMOs are teamwork games in the end. If people aren't performing to the max on their class they gotta be told to get good. If it's game design fault, you gotta work as a team to get around it until fixed

Thing is, SE did provide enmity generation buffs before HW was released. PLD, or example, not only had the enmity multipliers adjusted for certain moves, but had them added to others as well so they could hold aggro better. It is fairly noticeable to the point where one wouldn't have to use their enmity reductions or keep them on cooldown. In the case of an undergeared tank focusing on enmity generation, those abilities see a lot more use.

Yes, MMOs are about teamwork but if the rest of the group has to dumb down their play style to cater to an underperformer, then something is wrong.

[Samsta]

Once the tank hits a target, the DPS should be attacking it immediately.

And if doing this causes tank to have problems holding aggro, would it kill you to wait a few secs and not attack? This basically happens only in lower level content if the tank is undergeared, what do a few seconds per pull affect in those?