Pipe Dreams: Red Mage the melee DPS

[Duelle]

By now most people know how I feel about the topic of Red Mage. While I usually end up inserting my ideas in existing threads, I figured I should make a proper thread dedicated to this idea

Red Mage

Cross-classes: CNJ (Stoneskin, Cure, Raise, Protect), THM (Swiftcast, Surecast, Blizzard II, Sleep)

Abilities

01 Quick Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of 140.
02 Principle of Defense - Increase parry rate by 20% and evasion rate by 10%. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 90s.
04 Stocatta - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo action: Quick Thrust. Combo potency: 220.
06 Burn - Deals fire damage with a potency of 250. Range: 10y. Cast time: 3s. Shares a cooldown with Frost and Shock.
08 Enfire - Causes auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal additional fire damage with a potency of 60. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other sword enchantments.
10 Froissement - Delivers an attack with a potency of 80. Additional effect: Pacification for 3s. Cooldown: 45s.
12 Keen Eye - Increases the critical chance of the next two attacks by 100/50%. Cooldown: 90s.
15 Soul Thrust - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo action: Quick Thrust. Combo potency: 220. Additional effect: Absorbs damage as MP.
18 Frost - Deals ice damage with a potency of 40. Additional effect: Slow +20% for 20s. Range: 10y. Cast time: 3s. Shares a cooldown with Burn and Shock.
22 Enblizzard - Causes auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal additional ice damage with a potency of 60. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other sword enchantments.
26 Iron Thorn - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo potency: 260. Additional effect: Increases damage target takes from your magic attacks by 5% for 30s.
30 Chant - Sacrifice HP to heal target ally for 200% of the amount sacrificed. Cast time: 4s.
34 Shock - Deals lightning damage with a potency of 40. Additional effect: lightning damage over time with a potency of 30 for 30s. Range: 10y. Cast time: 3s. Shares a cooldown with Burn and Frost.
38 Enthunder - Causes auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal additional lightning damage with a potency of 60. Effect ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other sword enchantments.
42 Refresh - Restores MP for 30 seconds. Cooldown: 120s.
46 Circle Blade - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies.
50 Requiescat - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Combo action: Soul Thrust. Combo potency: 210. Combo effect: Reduces target's piercing resistance by 10% for 20s.

Traits

08 Enhanced Dexterity
14 Combat Cast - Your auto-attacks and weapon skills have a 20% chance to make the next spell instant cast and cost 50% less MP.
16 Enhanced Dexterity II
20 Battle Mage - Increases magic potency by 10% of your attack power.
24 Mastery of Defense - Principle of Defense now increases parry rate by 30% and evasion rate by 15%.
28 Fast Cast - Increases spell casting speed by 20% of your skill speed.
32 Enhanced Dexterity III
36 Battle Mage II - Increases magic potency by an additional 10% of your attack power.
40 Enhanced Froissement - Froissement now also inflicts target with Silence for 3s.
44 Keener Eye - Keen Eye now increases the critical chance of the next three attacks by 100/75/50%.
48 Enhanced Refresh - When used on yourself, Refresh also restores TP.

Quested Abilities

30 Manablast - Consumes active sword enchant. Effect is determined by the active sword enchantment. Cooldown: 45s.
--Enfire: Blinds target for 15s.
--Enblizzard: Binds target for 10s.
--Enthunder: Stuns target for 4s.
35 Coup de Grace - Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be used on targets below 20% HP. Cooldown: 45s.
40 Temper - Increases damage dealt by 20%. Duration: 30s. Cooldown: 90s.
45 Phalanx - Reduces damage taken by target party member by 25%. Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 120s.
50 Double - Doubles the cost of the next spell or weapon skill, causing it to happen twice in a row. Cooldown: 90s.
52 Enfeeble - Increases damage target takes from critical hits by 15% and increases target's chances of receiving critical damage by 10%. Duration: 10s. Cooldown 240s.
54 Spellblade - Consumes active sword enchantment to deliver fire/ice/lightning damage with a potency of 300. Cooldown: 30s. Shares a cooldown with Magic Burst.
56 Contagion Transfer - Absorb one negative effect from target ally. Additional effect: Reduces the duration and potency of the absorbed negative effect by 30%. Cooldown: 150s.
58 Magic Burst - Consumes active sword enchantment. Effect is determined by the enchant consumed. Cooldown: 30s. Shares a cooldown with Spellblade.
--Enfire: Deals fire damage with a potency of 120 to nearby enemies.
--Enblizzard: Afflicts nearby enemies with +20% Slow for 20s.
--Enthunder: Deals lightning damage over time with a potency of 30 for 30s to nearby enemies.
60 Triple - Triples the cost of the next spell or weapon skill, causing it to happen thrice in a row. Cooldown: 180s.

Lv3 Limit Break - Chant du Cygne: The RDM's rapier glows with magic, followed by the RDM making three wide cuts on the enemy (each cut having particle effects to show alignment to fire, ice and thunder) in a Z-shape. The cuts glow and explode. Melee limit break.

The Questline (WARNING: Fanfiction advisory is in effect)

The Red Mage questline would involve either a focus on the three disciplines that make up the RDM (sword, attack magic, heal/support magic), or their role in the world. I originally wanted them as a sort of force that kept an eye on Halone inquisitors on behalf of the Holy See, investigating claims of wrongdoing and abuse of power, followed by them judging and executing said corrupt inquisitors. Sort of like a department of internal affairs that makes sure inner wrong-doing is punished accordingly. Part of this was given to DRK, so I can't use it anymore. Or perhaps the Holy See would bring back the Red Mage to show they have an answer to apostates like Dark Knights.

Assuming we go with the latter, the 30-50 RDM story would revolve around training you while witnessing the reestablishment of the RDM order. Maybe deal with someone who is trying to stop the reemergence of the order because it's not convenient to them (yes, I know MCH's quesline is built around this theme), or perhaps unearthing why the RDM order was dissolved in the first place.

The 52-60 questline would have you on the field dealing with rumors of wrong-doing. You'd also butt heads with a dark knight trainee that is convinced all affiliates of the church are corrupt and never up to any good.

30 The Red-Hatted League
35 Learning the talk
40 Learning the walk
45 Of hats and rapiers
50 Three become one
52 A Scandal in Coerthas
54 Between two swords
56 A puzzle in pieces
58 Signs point to...
60 Foible of the just

Achievements
It's gotta be the hat I-IV- Achieve red mage level 30/40/50/60
A Study in Crimson I - Complete the red mage job quest "Three become one"
A Study in Crimson II - Complete the red mage job quest "Foible of the just"

Notes

- As always, effects, potencies and durations are negotiable.
- The concept behind this RDM is a magic swordsman, but the key element of the job in this suggestion is utility.
- Accentuating the element of utility, this RDM can interrupt both melee and magic attacks (pacification and silence from Froissement), can Stun, bind and slow a target.
- The two melee combos that make up this gameplay model are Quick Thrust => Stoccatta => Iron Thorn (damage and +magic damage) and Quick Thrust => Soul Thrust => Requiescat (piercing debuff). The rest of the time would be devoted to keeping DoTs (Shock) up along with weaving in Combat Cast procs as needed. Utility spells and abilities/cooldowns to enhance damage (Double, Triple, Spellblade) would also be part of this job's gameplay.
- Combat Cast affects all spells, both native and cross-classed. So yes, this does affect Sleep, Cure, Stoneskin and Raise in addition to Chant and Burn/Frost/Shock.
- This being said, I know this has a low chance of implementation because the gameplay is a lot more simple than NIN or DRG or MNK. I do like simple gameplay, though I get the developers don't agree with me on that.
- Haven't decided on MP costs, but I do believe the job's native spells should be expensive (probably a little less than what Clemency costs PLDs) to encourage use of procs while keeping hard-casting magic as an option against ranged enemies.
- Battle Mage's potency boost goes for both Magic Attack Potency and Healing Magic Potency. The latter would be beneficial for not only Chant (RDM's most potent heal) but also Cure cross-classed from WHM. Due to lower potency a RDM's Cure would obviously be weaker than a WHM's, but be stronger than one cast by a PLD.
- Contagion Transfer is a last-minute addition that would prove useful in certain situations, and certainly more useful than Warden's Paean.
- Enfeeble is where you'd see a sort of symbiosis between BRD, RDM and DRG. Battle Litany, RDM's own Keen Eye cooldown, Enfeeble, DRG's piercing debuff, and BRD's own reliance on crits.
- This all said, RDM's weakness is it's lack of AoE. You don't have actual AoE until 46 when you get Circle Blade.
- Refresh is designed mostly to be used on yourself, as it supplements MP recovery from Soul Thrust. TP recovery from Refresh does play into this, but the ability can be used on party members to regen their MP. It's just more beneficial to use it on yourself.
- The sword enchantments have gone through numerous iterations, and in this case are basically damage boosts to your auto attacks and weaponskills. While Spellblade and Magic Burst consume your enchant to deal damage, Manablast is strictly for utility and nothind more. The long cooldown is intended to make this a situational ability and allow the RDM to plan ahead.
- To those curious, this job should be doing NIN-level DPS.

Questions, comments and so on are welcome.

[Nyghtmarerobu]

These are all my own opinions, so take what I say with a grain of salt, as I read over everything that was posted and giving you constructive feedback. I will say I like your post, and I like your ideas very much.

- The concept behind this RDM is a magic swordsman, but the key element of the job in this suggestion is utility.

I think what your suggesting has -too much- utility

- This being said, I know this has a low chance of implementation because the gameplay is a lot more simple than NIN or DRG or MNK. I do like simple gameplay, though I get the developers don't agree with me on that.

Dragoon is pretty simple in terms of how its played, don't let the illusion that other jobs are more complex change how you feel Red Mage could be.

- To those curious, this job should be doing NIN-level DPS.

I think thats to much power for the utility it could possibly have. I'd say more akin to a bard, since they'd be more of a support role, rather than a pure dps.

Cross-classes: CNJ (Stoneskin, Cure, Raise, Protect), THM (Swiftcast, Surecast, Blizzard II, Sleep)

While I can see why you would want CNJ and THM to be its crossclass skills, I'd say unless they get some kind of weird potency change because they are RDM, CNJ just isn't good for them. Protect and Stoneskin would be great, but Raise would be worthless without a trait to battle raise. ACN over CNJ might be a better choice, as you'd be able to make use of Virus, eye for an eye, ruin (which could potetially, be useful with your double and triple), as well as Ressurection, and physick. This would only add to the classes utility overall. This contradicts what I said about to much utility, but if the dps were lowered overall, this would be awesome to have.

[Duelle]

First I wanted to say I thank you for taking the time to comment on this idea.

I think what your suggesting has -too much- utility

I agree that this has a lot of utility. I guess it's the result of trying to match the 18-ability mold while keeping abilities that are the same thing with different colors to a minimum. Realistically speaking, a DPS with utility doesn't need a ton of abilities to function, but since every job has to have 18 abilities on top of now 10 job abilities...

This said, most boss mobs are immune to Slow, Weight, Bind and Blind, and I would make them immune to Paralyze. Granted, this would still make RDM really strong in PvP before even introducing the PvP abilities and be a boon in dungeon runs (RDM paralyzing something like the Wamouras in Neverreap). It'd also be the only job that has a stun on a 45 second cooldown (more than double the CD of most jobs with stuns and requiring a stance change to do so). In the end, the main utility I was aiming for was Froissement, Phalanx, and Enfeeble as the reasons to have a RDM around. Off-heals as a nice bonus but at the same level of usability as Clemency (or probably more useful between Fast Cast and the fact its easier to use when you're not getting hit in the face by the mob).

For now I've done a revision that removes Paralyze and Weight, turning Burn/Frost/Shock into burst damage/Slow debuff/DoT respectively. To try to create a relationship similar to WAR and NIN, Requiescat now has a piercing debuff and Iron Thorn increases damage the mob takes from the RDM's magic attacks (enspell effects, Burn, Shock, Magic Burst and Spellblade), so no more Foe Requiem knock-off either.

I think thats to much power for the utility it could possibly have. I'd say more akin to a bard, since they'd be more of a support role, rather than a pure dps.

That invites too many problems to count, so I'd be more willing to remove the utility over nerfing the DPS.

While I can see why you would want CNJ and THM to be its crossclass skills, I'd say unless they get some kind of weird potency change because they are RDM, CNJ just isn't good for them. Protect and Stoneskin would be great, but Raise would be worthless without a trait to battle raise.

This is why I added the battlemage traits, though I guess those need to be made stronger. The idea is that since RDM scales with DEX (which directly influences attack power), you have a stat conversion trait that boosts magic attack and healing potency without having to gear for INT or MND (since that would dilute the stats on gear). This way spells become more powerful on RDM without matching the strength of spells cast by their parent classes.

I've never been keen on handing out battle raises, so RDM not having access to one is intended. It's also for the sake of thematics, since the traditional RDM borrows from WHM and BLM, much like this RDM can borrow from their analogues, CNJ and THM. That and between Refresh and using Soul Thrust to recover MP, battle rezzes are not as big an opportunity cost for a RDM compared to a WHM, SCH, AST or SMN.

[Delphor]

This is just a general comment, and I will admit that I haven't played many Final Fantasy games so I don't know the intricacies of prior RDMs, but I get the feeling that solely using the Ice/Fire/Lightning template draws too heavily from the Thaumaturge.

If you ask me, if RDM is traditionally taken from the combination of WHM and BLM, and each has their elemental attunements to three of the six elements, the Red Mage should demonstrate their mastery over all elements and the sword by being able to imbue their rapier to any one of the chosen elements at any one given time (Enaero, Enstone, Enwater, Enfire, Enthunder, Enfrost) and thus having weaponskills that differ based on the imbued element.

This would also allow SE to reintroduce the elemental wheel to some minor effect, and would give more of a spotlight on the sword-based weapon skills and utility of the RDM.

In regards to renaming some elements, I'd consider changing "Quick Thrust" to "Rapid Jab" to differentiate from the Lancer's thrust movements, changing Keen Eye and Keener Eye to Vigilance and Surveillance respectively (if they're not previously used) to steer away from Keen Flurry and Hawk's Eye, and it may be worth considering altering Refresh to "Fortify" as Refresh itself is currently an effect, not a skill. You could make the "below 20%" move be named Requiescat instead of Coup de Grace, and changing the current Requiescat to Denouement/Coup de Grace in its place. Soul Thrust could instead be named Soul Jab/Needle, Circle Blade could be Arc Swipe, and I was considering that Iron Thorn could have a Bleed debuff on mobs, as it's not a debuff we can apply as players, merely receive.

I was also thinking that for traits that increase spell speed and attack power, they could use the names of classical music terms, as a rapier is somewhat similar to a conductor's baton thematically (at least in my head), so the attack power could be Fermata, and the spell speed Allegro.

And finally, in regards to the quested abilities, I'd change the name of Contagion Transfer to Siphon, make Double do a double potency hit for 150% of the cost of an ability, and Triple do a triple potency hit for 200-250% of an ability's cost, and switch the Magic in Magic Burst for Phase Burst.

[MaethusXion]

Couple suggestions

Make Refresh castable on self-only and probably change the name(Regain maybe?). Every other caster is able to activate their own MP recovery skill(Blizzards, Luminiferous Aether, Aetherflow/Energy Drain, Shroud of Saints), then there's BRD/MCH with their MP recovery abilities, so RDM doesn't need someone to be demanding their MP recovery skill.

Double/Triple: costs 175-200%/250-300% to do 2x/3x damage

More fencing-styled names for the sword skills.

[Duelle]

Make Refresh castable on self-only and probably change the name(Regain maybe?). Every other caster is able to activate their own MP recovery skill(Blizzards, Luminiferous Aether, Aetherflow/Energy Drain, Shroud of Saints), then there's BRD/MCH with their MP recovery abilities, so RDM doesn't need someone to be demanding their MP recovery skill.

While I agree, I added a targetable version of Refresh because I'm anticipating the devs giving RDM that if they were to implement it. Them giving NIN Goad was a surprise, and if anything it makes me think RDM would get the MP equivalent. I guess I could reduce the cooldown and make it self-only. I'd definitely get some catharsis out of that, since I hated to see the job being a refresh bot in FFXI.

Double/Triple: costs 175-200%/250-300% to do 2x/3x damage

make Double do a double potency hit for 150% of the cost of an ability, and Triple do a triple potency hit for 200-250% of an ability's cost

The funny thing about your comments on that is that one of my earlier RDM drafts had Double designed as you guys say. Double damage/potency for double the cost. My reasoning was that it wouldn't be mechanically possible to have spells process multiple times based off of one action. Then the devs went and proved me wrong when they implemented the Nabriales fight (the boss in Chrysalis), where we see that Double and Triple are actually quite possible. This also should somewhat satisfy the people who wanted RDM to have something akin to Double Cast from other FF games.

This is just a general comment, and I will admit that I haven't played many Final Fantasy games so I don't know the intricacies of prior RDMs, but I get the feeling that solely using the Ice/Fire/Lightning template draws too heavily from the Thaumaturge.

Much like THM/BLM, the reason I gave RDM three elements was to mimic how it was in the original Final Fantasy. BLM there had access to Fire, Blizzard and Thunder, and incidentally RDM had access to the same. The main thing RDM draws from WHM is actually stuff like Protect, Cure and so on.

If you ask me, if RDM is traditionally taken from the combination of WHM and BLM, and each has their elemental attunements to three of the six elements, the Red Mage should demonstrate their mastery over all elements and the sword by being able to imbue their rapier to any one of the chosen elements at any one given time (Enaero, Enstone, Enwater, Enfire, Enthunder, Enfrost) and thus having weaponskills that differ based on the imbued element.

Ideally this would be the way to go. The problem is that you're giving up three ability slots out of the 18 required for each job, and you're creating a different type of ability bloat (abilities that do the same thing). Don't get me wrong, because I'd love to be able to let RDMs enchant their swords with whatever element they want, but I was trying to work within the design the devs seem to be using.

[rho]

Wonderfully thought through!
Kudos to you sir!
Just the thought of RDM being implemented in this fashion gives me the butterflies..

Let us cross our fingers and hope the Twelve will heed your words!!

[Jonnycbad]

Black Mage- DPS
White Mage-Healer
Red Mage- Tank


Logic: There's really only one role that can both DPS, support themselves with heals, and fight close range, and that role is Tank (think PLD has Clemency and uses a sword, DRK has Blood Weapon and magic alongside a melee weapon, WAR can self heal with one of their combos).

Red Mage would more likely be a Tank and use Duelist/Fencer abilities imbued with elemental magic as their style. Also remember that RDM most likely will appear alongside Samurai in 4.0 (been referenced and talked about already), and I doubt they would release 2 DPS jobs in the same expansion (also: Yoshi P guaranteed SAM would not be a Tank...which also makes RDM more likely to be a tank).

As Tanks can DPS somewhat, and RDM never ever being a melee specialist, but proficient at 'dueling/fencing' and having intermediate level heals/nukes, Tank is really the most obvious role they would fill. They can borrow some of Rune Fencer's skills and spells from FFXI but give them a fencing rapier and a small shield. Imbue their sword with aether for various effects like how NIN imbues their weapons with various venoms for effects. Skills like Parry/Inquartata/Riposte/Lunge etc. Toss in classic RDM spells (which already exist in the game btw: Haste/Enfire/Blaze Spike/Enthunder/Paralyze/Poison/Blind etc).

RDM could lore-wise use Conjury, swordsmanship and Thurmatugy but focus the Aether on their sword instead of a staff/rod. Maybe instead of insta-heals. RDM in Final Fantasy Dimensions had "Aspir Blade" and "Cure Blade", throw these into one of RDM's enmity combos would be similar to Riot Blade damage+MP restore, or damage + 50% HP back restore etc. Level 50 ability could be Dualcast, which would be similar to NIN's Duality or SCH's Emergency Tactics, doubles the effect of the next ability.

Also, while Chant du Cygne is badass, I would want that to be their level 60 DPS combo finisher like Royal Authority is. If they aren't a tank and DO become a melee DPS, their level 3 should be this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs5gALlC7nc

[Saggo]

Logic: There's really only one role that can both DPS, support themselves with heals, and fight close range, and that role is Tank

Healers both DPS, support with heals, and fight far range. Tweak the DPS to melee and it would suit RDM. Tweak the ratio of DPS to Heals and DPS would suit RDM. Tanking doesn't really inherently suit RDM alone. If it was a tank, it'd be at SE's whims.

[Anova]

It's a fun mechanic, setting up so that a spell combos off a melee attack and I think that concept works really well with RDM.

I do want to confirm if you intended for enfire, enblizzard, and enthunder to only affect your Manablast ability though.

Remember that enemies do not have actual elemental resistances/vulnerabilities so the type of magic damage does not matter. Everything is magic damage. The only difference is potency between the various elements (which is why BLM will cast Fire on Ifrit and Blizzard on Shiva).

It affects Manablast but every other quest ability is just has no difference whether its fire, ice, or thunder damage. The way you worded abilities like Magic Burst makes me think you wanted it to do more than just magic damage because you specify elements.