How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

[NanahaOdd]

A random thought, but would you be able to boost dragoon dps if you had them working in unison? The idea is to have a IDC4> TTT4> TTT4 rotation, where all buffed dots from chaos thrust tick, and immediate damage from the TTT4 combo is available. The issue to pull off double TTT4 here is the fact that disembowel would fall off.

This would be where the 2nd dragoon comes in. By starting with a TTT4 combo, their disembowel would come later, resulting in it staying refreshed for the first dragoon's TTT4 combo.

H -> IDC4 -> P -> TTT4 -> TTT4 -> Repeat
H -> TTT4 -> P -> IDC4 ->TTT4 -> Repeat

*excuse my first post of the forum

[Shamox]

The next tier after 599 is 625 so having both 592 and 624 are a large amount of wasted stats, 20 and 25. In these cases it's almost better to meld an additional skillspeed materia, the weight of using a grade 5 materia to hit a tier is 26.41/12*0.17 = 0.37 which is lot higher than the weight of crit.

I was gonna put a SS V anyway since I really prefer playing with my 600SS tier so I can play more risky on Botd, if it ends up being better than crit in terme of stats then it's really nice.

I'm not entirely sure if I understand your question, but correct me if I'm wrong, you're asking if at an equal trade of in weight STR is superior to secondary stats? If that is the question the answer is actually no. I do understand what you're thinking and my initial thought was the same. But a while back me and Dervy tested this and it prooved me wrong. Both Crit and Det gives a better increase at an equal trade off, especially crit due to its quadratic function. So if you have the choice of getting 1/0.279 crit or 1 STR always go with the crit.

Yup that's what I wanted to know.
Thank you for clearing that up.

[SunnyHirose]

A random thought, but would you be able to boost dragoon dps if you had them working in unison? The idea is to have a IDC4> TTT4> TTT4 rotation, where all buffed dots from chaos thrust tick, and immediate damage from the TTT4 combo is available. The issue to pull off double TTT4 here is the fact that disembowel would fall off.

This would be where the 2nd dragoon comes in. By starting with a TTT4 combo, their disembowel would come later, resulting in it staying refreshed for the first dragoon's TTT4 combo.

H -> IDC4 -> P -> TTT4 -> TTT4 -> Repeat
H -> TTT4 -> P -> IDC4 ->TTT4 -> Repeat

*excuse my first post of the forum

The main reason you don't want to do that is because Chaos Thrust is so good that sharing Disembowel doesn't do anything for you, barring exceptional circumstances (like in 24P instances, maybe you're hitting an add and someone else is ignoring it). Full Thrust combo is just filler. Not considering oGCD buffs, you would legit only suffer a couple % DPS loss for using Chaos Thrust combo in place of Full Thrust combo, that's how good it is.

Welcome to the forums... don't believe everything you read here!

[NanahaOdd]

The main reason you don't want to do that is because Chaos Thrust is so good that sharing Disembowel doesn't do anything for you, barring exceptional circumstances (like in 24P instances, maybe you're hitting an add and someone else is ignoring it). Full Thrust combo is just filler. Not considering oGCD buffs, you would legit only suffer a couple % DPS loss for using Chaos Thrust combo in place of Full Thrust combo, that's how good it is.

Welcome to the forums... don't believe everything you read here!

Wouldn't getting full ticks off buffed chaos thrust be better than clipping it? The disembowel is just a means to have chaos ticks tick out and support the filler combo of full thrust.

[SunnyHirose]

Wouldn't getting full ticks off buffed chaos thrust be better than clipping it? The disembowel is just a means to have chaos ticks tick out and support the filler combo of full thrust.

Well, my primary contention is that your second goon should be opening with CT as well; also, both should maintain maximal Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize uptime regardless.

But squaring those away, the problem is subtle enough that you have to look at it systematically. The following is such an analysis, and not for the faint of heart.

Let's say your GCD is 2.4 seconds. The normal rotation is (piercing damage):

1x Heavy Thrust = 170
1x Phlebotomize = 170
1x Chaos Thrust combo = 180 + 220 + 250 + 290 = 940
1x Full Thrust combo = 150 + 200 + 360 + 290 = 1000

=> 2280 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 2884.2

The extended rotation, normalized to the same 24 seconds and getting Disembowel from someone else, is:

1x Heavy Thrust = 170
1x Phlebotomize = 170
2/3x Chaos Thrust combo = 940 / 3 = 626.667
4/3x Full Thrust combo = 1000 * 2 / 3 = 1333.333

=> 2300 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 2909.5

We can assume there is no difference to Phlebotomize DoT. But now, the part we were looking at: Chaos Thrust uptime.

Normally, this would be 35 (plus a little buff from SS, which we'll approximate as "between 36 and 37" at this base GCD) every 3 seconds. Normally, you are getting 24 seconds of that every 24 seconds, which means:

36.5 * 8 * 1.15 = 335.8 (per 24)

and with the "full ticks, less uptime" rotation, you are getting 60 seconds of Chaos Thrust (20 ticks) every 72 seconds (hence the divisor of 3).

36.5 * 20/3 * 1.15 = 279.833 (per 24)

You gain 2909.5 - 2884.2 = 25.3 potency (per 24 seconds) to piercing damage, but at a loss of 335.8 - 279.833 = 55.96700 potency (per 24 seconds). What you stand to lose rotationally is a net total of 30.667 / 24s.

Now, because the question is about a buffed Chaos Thrust, the natural extension of this information is to consider the temporary gains versus the rotational loss. We can accept on its face that both of these options are going to hit the second Blood for Blood shortly after we pretty much have to use a Chaos Thrust combo; it's far enough out that let's just forget it. Over a timeframe of 80 seconds (the period of the greatest buff) we compare:

potency of buffed clipped Chaos Thrust (24s) + 2.333x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrusts (56s)

and

potency of buffed Chaos Thrust (36s) + 1.833x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrust (44s).

With a little algebra, we see that we are actually trying to compare:

potency of buffed clipped Chaos Thrust (24s) + 0.5x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrust

and

potency of buffed Chaos Thrust (36s).

We know 0.5x clipped unbuffed Chaos Thrust to be 335.8 / 2 = 167.9. We got 99 potency gained out of extra Full Thrust, so take that down to 68.9 and two unknown quantities. Doing a little more algebra, we know 8 of the DoT ticks being the same, we need to match 68.9 potency with buffs only from two DoT ticks (73 potency). So you can crit luckily for one to beat the other, but as an average, it will never happen.

[whiskeybravo]

A random thought, but would you be able to boost dragoon dps if you had them working in unison? The idea is to have a IDC4> TTT4> TTT4 rotation, where all buffed dots from chaos thrust tick, and immediate damage from the TTT4 combo is available. The issue to pull off double TTT4 here is the fact that disembowel would fall off.

Seems logical enough but the math doesn't support it, as Sunny so eloquently provided above.

Although, if Thendiel's math is right it would work eventually with high enough skill speed. 1500 something iirc

[Aquaslash]

New relic step is 260, as predicted by many. Might actually beat out the unupgraded shire weapon for progression, depending on how the stats scale

As an update, my trident was at 120 crit, 114 det and 6 ss. It has now scaled to 133 crit, 124 det and 6 ss. Weapon damage, Str and vit are the same as unupgraded shire, but the auto attack is higher (at least for me it is)

[mosaicex]

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X0TL
This is my current equips.

Any tips on what to go from here? I can clear up to A11S in RF (working on A12S right now). I tried to come up with my own but the accuracy and skill speed problems threw me off.
I will also probably get the Shire weapon next week (no luck from rolls) in case it helps with planning.

[Andazeus]

My fellow dragoons, I need some help with planning my gear as well.

I do not currently have a fixed raid group, so no savage items available, but want to optimize my gear for when I find a group. Also: while pentamelds are not fully out of the question, I am trying to avoid them where possible as I am quite short on cash.
Best combination I was able to figure out is this: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X1R4
Any thoughts on improving it?

Thank you!

[aleph_null]

Has anyone considered an accu/crit relic? If the relic ends up at i275 I think an accu/crit would be a good option since we can swap the shire pants for the savage pants, and we'll get over 1.2k crit.

Edit: something like this but with i275 weapon dmg, str and secondary stats. Probably nothing important for now since we don't even know if the relic will ever get to i275 lol.