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  1. #561
    Player
    HulveinBlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    890
    Character
    Hulvein Wyrmblood
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Hakmatic View Post
    Hello guys! I've been gone for a few months, i'll be coming back to do the next raid tier, going get the dust off.
    Who raised this guy? :P

    Jk, wb.
    (0)

  2. #562
    Player
    MiniTyra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    125
    Character
    Mini Tyra
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Btw, Jack. Seeing as you have a Bachelors in Mathematics, "Dervy", tehehe, has a problem and he'd like your advice on how to reverse engineer it. It's in regards to the true function of WD/DET, and the linearity of Strength. He's found something rather interesting over the past few weeks.

    You're welcome to contact him on reddit, youtube, his blog, w/e.
    (0)

  3. #563
    Player JackFross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    680
    Character
    Eve Malqir
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTyra View Post
    Maybe it's because I'm coming from a progression mindset... Having all buffs being used together, multiplicatively, along with synchronised BLs + Fey w/e it's called just seems... Better?. That's my mindset of buff usage at least.
    Yeah, it honestly comes down to personal dps versus raid dps. In the post-progression landscape we're in, personal dps is all that really matters, imo, since the raid's dps should already be more than good enough to down the content. Using the stuff on cooldown, regardless of whether or not it modifies kill time, (generally) will result in a better parse than if you hold it to stack buffs later.

    It's the same reason Dragoons don't hold B4B for the Hand of Pain check anymore. We don't need that additional damage to clear it, now, so there's no real reason to do it.
    (0)

  4. #564
    Player
    Sleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,563
    Character
    Philia Felice
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by JackFross View Post
    Yeah, it honestly comes down to personal dps versus raid dps. In the post-progression landscape we're in, personal dps is all that really matters, imo, since the raid's dps should already be more than good enough to down the content. Using the stuff on cooldown, regardless of whether or not it modifies kill time, (generally) will result in a better parse than if you hold it to stack buffs later.

    It's the same reason Dragoons don't hold B4B for the Hand of Pain check anymore. We don't need that additional damage to clear it, now, so there's no real reason to do it.
    You must have a different definition of raid DPS than me. Raid DPS, or rather effective raid DPS (case in point, A3S's add phase where sacrificing some personal DPS = higher boss DPS) is still the most important thing, pre, mid, and post progression. You shouldn't care about personal DPS that hinders the raid, that should never be your goal unless you're just fflogs chasing.
    (1)

  5. #565
    Player JackFross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    680
    Character
    Eve Malqir
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleigh View Post
    You must have a different definition of raid DPS than me. Raid DPS, or rather effective raid DPS (case in point, A3S's add phase where sacrificing some personal DPS = higher boss DPS) is still the most important thing, pre, mid, and post progression. You shouldn't care about personal DPS that hinders the raid, that should never be your goal unless you're just fflogs chasing.
    I worded it poorly, but the essential thing is that pushing cooldowns around and having fewer overall casts of your buffs is a net loss in raid dps for the fight. If you can safely shift a cooldown to bolster your dps (and by extension the raid's dps) while still meeting every check in the fight, there's really no reason not to. If you're in a group where the hand of pain check is still difficult, and you staunchly refuse to shift your B4B to that spot so you can clear the check consistently, you're being a shit. On the flip side, if your raid dps *is* high enough that you consistently clear that dps check without you holding B4B for it, you shouldn't hold it. You're sacrificing raid (and personal) dps to pad a check that you already clear with ease.

    And the add phase B4B - If I get the same amount of casts of B4B and BL in the final phase as any other dragoon (including having B4B come off cooldown ~5-10s before the second hand spawns), why should I be holding my buffs and hindering my own performance on the fight overall? It doesn't change the outcome, doesn't make the fight any harder to clear, it just boosts overall raid dps by padding my own numbers higher.

    Using Battle Litany at different times only boosts raid dps if you stack your buffs there, and my group has proven without a doubt that holding buffs to coordinate BL at a certain point gives a net DECREASE in raid dps compared to everyone just doing their thing. One raid night in A4S, we decided to try and boost our third leg dps by coordinating all cooldowns and potions to be used after the dolls are fed and everyone is in full dps up-time. We were consistently 7% to 10% slow on the leg. We reverted to our original strategy (where I open on the leg with BL+B4B+IR+BotD+Potion before the add spawns) and we killed the leg 7+ seconds fast on every attempt without changing anything else in the strat. Maybe it was us being shit? Maybe it was because we limited ourselves to 1 Trick Attack on the leg instead of our usual 2? I dunno. Really turned me off on the idea of sacrificing personal dps for raid dps when that happened.
    (0)

  6. #566
    Player
    MiniTyra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    125
    Character
    Mini Tyra
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    I absolutely disagree.

    There's a reason why a group have cleared A4S in i190. There's a reason why stacking raid buffs together is effective to push through mechanics and clear fights. There's a reason why every single successful progression group understands the important of stacking buffs/debuffs together. Every single speed clear group synchronises buffs together. It's an extremely effective.

    Your group maybe timing your buffs incorrectly and using them in a manner that is completely ineffective, hence why you can't see the benefit of it.

    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/RxH2kD...86&view=events

    That's a 10min 03s A3S. Notice where the Dragoon is using Litany, blood for blood and his potion. Definitely not during the add phase.
    (1)

  7. #567
    Player
    Hakmatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    320
    Character
    Hak Matic
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 60
    Well I see Jack used my a3 as example for using buffs during adds, and I can tell you right now it's not a raid dps gain. I try different things and popping buffs during adds was one of them. I always change what I do , I also haven't raided in a long time but I would advise not popping b4b during adds. Save it for your potion and other buffs after adds.
    (1)

  8. #568
    Player JackFross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    680
    Character
    Eve Malqir
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    I wish I had the time or desire to look up those parses now so I could try and figure out why it is that our raid dps was so low when we tried to swap how we coordinate everything, since everything you've been saying definitely sounds correct. I mean, I can't argue that it's entirely possible this is a primary reason I can't seem to get my numbers up over 1250 on the fight, barring the silly excuse of using the 205 spear.

    A3S is just a bad example of the thing I'm trying to get across. But yeah, it's the difference between needlessly padding and effective boosts, and I'm just doing it wrong, more or less.
    (0)

  9. #569
    Player
    Zeviand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    67
    Character
    Zeviand Imperiosus
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 60
    There is literally no disadvantage in popping BFB during adds phase in a3s if you pop it at the beginning of adds phase. If you pop BFB as soon as it's up in the previous phases, it'll be up for the beginning of adds phase and will be back up at the start of final phase. So unless you need to hold BFB to get through hand of pain, then why not?
    (0)

  10. #570
    Player
    MiniTyra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    125
    Character
    Mini Tyra
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Yes there is. If you're popping BFB on the fly, your 3rd application happens right after Hand of Pain, not at the beginning of add phase.

    Why wouldn't you use it after Hand of Pain and instead pop it during add phase? You can't change or increase the speed at which you get through the phase. No buffs will change the fact it's 8% of Living Liquids HP in 92s, flat. It has no change on the duration of the fight or the HP of living liquid.

    Why not pop it after Hand of Pain, where the *1.3 from BFB is meaningful to the fight, where it actually impacts the HP of the boss and impact your clear time in a meaningful way?

    Delaying your cooldown to use it, specifically for add phase, is a bigger waste, than using your CDs on the fly and popping BFB 1/2 through the Add Phase.
    (0)
    Last edited by MiniTyra; 02-03-2016 at 11:54 PM.

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