Shadow wall needs an additional effect.

[Cabalabob]

Sentinel - 40% damage reduction for 10 seconds.
Vengeance - 30% damage reduction for 15 seconds + counter physical damage.
Shadow wall - 30% damage reduction for 10 seconds.

All 3 min recast. Edit: vengeance is 2 min recast. Making it stronger than shadow wall with 1 min less on the recast.

Shadow wall is weaker than sentinel and has no extra effect like vengeance, yet has the same recast time. Why does shadow wall not get an extra effect? Maybe drains 50% of damage recieved as hp or restores mp equivalent to all damage taken when the effect wears off, or maybe make it add a reflect effect for magical damage?

[carbonx]

Disagree. You can't simply compare a single abilities that make for a tank's whole kit, unless you want every class to literally be the same with minor differences.

For instance, you give them a stronger Shadow Wall on top of the fact they can essentially have 30% magic mitigation every minute for DA+Dark Mind? You're skirting into territory that would make the class hard to balance.

[Cabalabob]

Disagree. You can't simply compare a single abilities that make for a tank's whole kit, unless you want every class to literally be the same with minor differences.

For instance, you give them a stronger Shadow Wall on top of the fact they can essentially have 30% magic mitigation every minute for DA+Dark Mind? You're skirting into territory that would make the class hard to balance.

This would be a fair point if I was asking for it to be made 40% reduction, more like sentinel, but i'm asking for it to get an additional effect, more like vengeance, which doesn't have to be something to make it any more defensive it could just be something that adds some extra utility.

And I'd say it is fair to look at the cooldown individually when it comes to comparing it to other cooldowns, if raging strikes was 80 seconds like blood for blood without the increased damage taken, you know other damage dealers would raise an eyebrow.

[carbonx]

And I'd say it is fair to look at the cooldown individually when it comes to comparing it to other cooldowns, if raging strikes was 80 seconds like blood for blood without the increased damage taken, you know other damage dealers would raise an eyebrow.

Raging Strikes is 3 whole minutes for BLM, which is their only major offensive CD aside from Ley Lines. Yet, no one is raising the alarm because they are looking at the classes as a whole and how they are functioning. DRK is functioning well.

DRK already have -20% damage taken from Grit stance (same as PLD with Shield Oath)
WAR dont have any kind of reduced damage taken while on Defiance..

Defiance adds the same effective HP as Grit and Shield Oath, in addition to being oGCD while the others are GCD. So, percentage wise, taking the same hit unmitigated is going to look the same on a PLD as a DRK as a WAR, if they are all in respective tank stances.

[ArdorGrey]

Defiance adds the same effective HP as Grit and Shield Oath, in addition to being oGCD while the others are GCD. So, percentage wise, taking the same hit unmitigated is going to look the same on a PLD as a DRK as a WAR, if they are all in respective tank stances.

This is flat out not true, but it's widely perpetuated because hey, anything to make War look even better than it is and justify further buffs for pld, right?

The ehp was slightly lower even back in 2.0.

It also doesn't affect healing from skills, and almost all of the healers new kit is skills. So, it's worse than it's ever been.


The ogcd thing is great, but War's don't gain the hp discrepancy when swapping into defiance and instantly lose any extra when swapping back. Having 20% DR on instant demand would be ludicrously powerful. I really think a lot of people clamouring for this don't look at the very many very real drawbacks War's tank stance has compared to the others.

For all the complaints about Inner beast being brokenly powerful on demand damage reduction, there sure are a lot of paladins that complain about their own on demand gcd eating damage reduction to be clunky and awkward, even though the mp cost is far less prohibitive than burning 5 wrath stacks and you don't have to be in melee range of a target to activate it.

I'm not saying pld isn't in a rough spot right now, but if you're going to draw comparisons at least make them fair and educated ones, much like you were able to do when looking at the raging strikes situation.

[carbonx]

This is flat out not true, but it's widely perpetuated because hey, anything to make War look even better than it is and justify further buffs for pld, right?

I don't believe I referred to buffing PLD at all in this thread. Please quote me if I somehow posted it unknowingly in a fit of insanity.

Let's math for a second. All tanks have gear which puts them at 18k HP. Defiance puts the War at 22.5k HP, but increases healing by 25% to make up for the discrepancy in HP. Shield Oath/Grit keeps them at 18k HP, but grants them the additional boon of 20% mitigation. They take a hit of 8k. WAR will drop to 14.5k, or 64% of their HP. DRK/PLD will take 6.4k, dropping them to 11.6k, 64% of their HP.

The only real difference is that WARs don't instantly max their HP until they are healed, which you stated. But they have tools like Equilibrium and the ability to preplan Defiance use to counter this.

[MeeYow]

It's worse than you think, vengeance is 2min recast.

20% of damage taken after reduction to MP? Full pool on a tank buster.

I think wall should be lower recast to boost DRK physical defence and Vengance should be 3 mins.

Maybe 90s Dark Mind for 2min shadow wall and Vengance to 3 mins?

[aerolol]

DRK already have -20% damage taken from Grit stance (same as PLD with Shield Oath)

WAR dont have any kind of reduced damage taken while on Defiance.

So even if Vengeance looks more powerful, in fact it's not really the case.
Different tank styles, different abilities.
Live with it.

[Cabalabob]

WAR dont have any kind of reduced damage taken while on Defiance.

Inner beast wants a word with you.

Besides its been mathed out that the 25% hp increase and extra healing recieved effect on defiance makes it about equivalent to shield oath.

[MeeYow]

Inner beast wants a word with you.

Besides its been mathed out that the 25% hp increase and extra healing recieved effect on defiance makes it about equivalent to shield oath.

It is fairly obvious that for spell cures the EHP is the same, 1.25 vs 1/0.8
WAR has a trivially small lower level of effective healing for magic (1 vs 1.2/1.25), which gets lost in overhealing.

Inner beast is the most powerful long term defensive cool down in the game, it puts rampart and shadowskin to shame with almost double uptime. In fact WARs low recasts give it rivalling long term physical mitigation with PLD and magical with DRK. Better in both cases if the WAR uses path.

I have Mathed this out and plan on uploading the spreadsheet after fine tuning.