More Horizontal Progression please

[karateorangutang]

snip

Ok this argument is going nowhere. Money talks.... if subs start dropping then you might see a shift in methodology. However, it is my opinion that as long as we pump money into the machine that it will stay the course. Why pay money if you aren't having fun? It's not like there's a shortage of electronic entertainment on the market.

[Hyrist]

I apologize if my posts towards you was a bit aggressive. I'm a very patient gal but after years of seeing people bash on others judgamentally, it's a thing that I don't tolerate anymore, if there is something I don't agree with I will speak out. It's okay to post opinions as long as you respect someone else's decisions and not judge them for that. The wording of your posts gave off that vibe, thank you for the clarification, though.



See what I mean, Hyrist? lol

I do, the criticism works both ways. Both sides of the conversation has a problem with striking out at the other. The question on having extended gameplay could be phrased a lot better.

Mind if I ask in my way instead?

We are running into a society that very much emphasis multitasking and consumes much more of our available downtime. Social media, the adaptation of RPG elements into other genre's of games (extending their use time), and the continual production of the online element - all of this distracts from what was typically a medium that could pretty much take over something as benign as watching television without consequence. In the end, we're a lot busier now than we were years ago, and it's showing in our trends.

I feel as if we're getting a lot more resistance to the slow-process content because of this factor, as well as the fact that the majority of the MMO base is wiser to the typical tropes used to stretch out content. In the face of this, you ask for more options.

As a counter-argument I would say that such long-term goals, when tied to progression, feel less like an option, and more like an obligation if a player wishes to stay current enough to play with friends who have differing playstyles. This is a problem we usually did not encounter in the older age MMOs, because our audience was so much more niche back then - if you coulden't fit the playstyle, you diddn't really play the game, and your cicles narrowed more because of it. FFXIV, by my impressions, seems to try to deviate away from that kind of target audience.

So, I have two questions along the vein of the feedback you received, in a far more respectful tone.

Given what I said above, would you be ok with accepting the unintentional (yet still possible) consequence of alienating a size-able portion of the base ,by expanding endgame in such a way that requires more investment?

And would you be willing to, barring above, participate or entertain in a non-progression aspect of the game that required such an investment as an option?

[Nadirah]

Well Google did me wrong then lol. Regardless Bethesda does have a huge focus on lore. Their gameplay in games has always been spotty, however they are generally beautiful and realized worlds.

I'm one of those crazy TES lore nerds.

If you want to give yourself a headache, go take a look at some of the metaphysical stuff and how CHIM and Amaranth work as concepts as described by Michael Kirkbride(guy that pretty much *made* Morrowind what it is, lore wise). He no longer works with Bethesda, but still writes works on the lore, which by many are considered canon. And considering that some of his extraneous works have been referenced in games after the fact, it seems they respect his work as well.

Summary: TES universe is the dream of a dream.

[Magis]

I'm one of those crazy TES lore nerds.

If you want to give yourself a headache, go take a look at some of the metaphysical stuff and how CHIM and Amaranth work as concepts as described by Michael Kirkbride(guy that pretty much *made* Morrowind what it is, lore wise). He no longer works with Bethesda, but still writes works on the lore, which by many are considered canon. And considering that some of his extraneous works have been referenced in games after the fact, it seems they respect his work as well.

Summary: TES universe is the dream of a dream.

Wasn't CHIM like the person realizes Tamriel is actually in a game (though not exactly realize it is one) and becomes near god like?

[Hyrist]

I am sure there were people like you going "I'm not bored with <insert failed game here> at all!" and then a few months later the game collapsed.

This is true, but none of them had the backbone FFXIV can rely upon to keep going, and most of them, including titles released after a Relam Reborn came out, have gone free to play in a much shorter time period. All indications point to FFXIV still being successful. Including evidence gathered by independent observers of the game's populace.

The question I pose to you is - at what time-frame do you consider FFXIV its own success? And at what time should the community consider FFXIV a successful game? Because right now, the evidence is against you, and has been against many of those stating that the game is currently 'doomed if it does not get dramatically changed' for going on two years now. I think it is fair to say that FFXIV has had a successful two years. Will more, differing content need to be produced for its continuing sucess? Of course, but the degree of such is always speculation. For now, we have no indicators, save for a vocal presence calling out the potential fall of the game, that this game is in any danger. And that same presence has been here for two years.

It's difficult to objectively give this argument merit right now. I'm sorry. I understand your opinion, but what you are calling for hasn't happened yet and show no distinctive indications of happening. Opinions on gameplay changes should not be weighed more heavily because of what seems to be unsubstantiated fear.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

I do, the criticism works both ways. Both sides of the conversation has a problem with striking out at the other. The question on having extended gameplay could be phrased a lot better.

Mind if I ask in my way instead?

I'm going to comment on this based on my personal experience. Having more options does not aleniate the player base imo. When I played FFXI, I was a midcore player. Relics and Mythics were hardcore things to get back then and I never got them. It was an option that only those with the determination could get. That never prevented me from joining HNM LSs or doing end game, at all. I got the best 3rd in the list, which was Empyrean Weapons and we cleared content perfectly. No one forced you to have the best of the best and there was always side grades you could use, instead. There were always one or two top LSs on each server who needed you to have certain pieces only for certain jobs like BRD or PLD in order to apply, but people had a choice not to apply to these super hardcore LSs in the first place. That or some LSs were nice enough to help you work towards the relic if you promised to dedicate to it.

That's what I did, I looked for LSs with same mind as me, more midcore. My fun was not diminished only because I couldn't invest that much time to get a relic. Hardcores had their fun, while midcores had theirs. And then there was the casuals, who slowly were getting into the midcore scene, who also had their own fun at their own pace. I had tons of friends from the 3 spectrums and played together.

Having options keeps the community at ease, everyone minding their own business. I think it's selfish of people not wanting to implement OPTIONS for other players with a different playstyle who want to strive for more when 1. it won't even affect them 2. it makes the game more fun to others, which means more subscription retention. People are honestly being extreme and paranoid about nothing.

People are not saying "stop making casual content, delete all the casual content in game, no more vertical progress", they are saying "we want more options for players like us" "more horizontal progression". Vertical progression is not bad, just like horizontal isn't, either. The problem with the game is that it's purely vertical progression and on top of that, in an extreme way, where working towards something means little when content gets outdated this fast. If there was a balance between the two, we'd have less players complaining, more players having fun and happy, more money for SE.

Hell, I was even in an all BST/SMN only LS for Sky, which would've been considered not optimal to the eyes of the super hardcore. But guess what, no one cared! In fact, hardcore people found it interesting that we beat content with BST and SMNs only, two jobs that were considered non-optimal for end game. It was a choice. A choice that we had and we all had fun, while hardcores had theirs.

[Hyrist]

<snip>.

I have similar experiences to you when FFXI came along, however, my community experiences were vastly different.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with the points here. Not that they need not to include more options, but more that they need to be cautious while doing so. I do have to move away form my computer now so I can't expand on that as I would like. But it boils down to this: We already have a wide variety of content, but everyone still feels content starved. The wider we go, the bigger that problem becomes. A way to resolve that is to keep content accessible by the masses. Right now, indications show that more difficult content, like Savage Alexander, is not.

When implementing more options, especially when requiring more investment, I feel as if they need to be careful not to alienate other players. I do not feel as if FFXI can be an appropriate parallel to draw in this, for a myriad of reasons.

[Iagainsti]

I was not talking about you when I said I can't stand this community. I was quoting the other guy whose posts were judgamental and offensive. But you also don't come off as respecting someone who plays more than you do when saying unhealthy, obsessively, not a badge of honor, etc. And yes I only enjoy people in this community who are reasonable and have common sense.

You need to chill. Not once did I state it was "unhealthy" or "Obsessive", I personally don't want to dump umpteen hours into FFXIV to achieve what I am already achieving a few hours a week. If it took umpteen hours to get my 190s, and more than 4 hours a week to cap eso(expert roulette and pvp take what 20 mins a run) or each boss of savage was a huge grind to get into and a 4-5 hour fight, I wouldn't play, and I believe the majority wouldn't either. That's my opinion so lose the chip on your little taru shoulder please. You have mentioned me personally way to much in these last few pages. All the power to Neku-whatever and anyone else who wants a gaming experience that takes 100s of hours to get anywhere, whatever rubs your Buddha, I'm saying not in this game please, I am happy with it.

[Nadirah]

Wasn't CHIM like the person realizes Tamriel is actually in a game (though not exactly realize it is one) and becomes near god like?

You realize you are in a dream, and can exert control over the dream.

Amaranth is when you begin to dream your own dream, like the one you live in.

CHIM is also explained on how to attain it in the 36 lessons of Vivec. Vivec has achieved CHIM. Whole thing is a cluster.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

You need to chill. Not once did I state it was "unhealthy" or "Obsessive", I personally don't want to dump umpteen hours into FFXIV to achieve what I am already achieving a few hours a week. If it took umpteen hours to get my 190s, and more than 4 hours a week to cap eso(expert roulette and pvp take what 20 mins a run) or each boss of savage was a huge grind to get into and a 4-5 hour fight, I wouldn't play, and I believe the majority wouldn't either. That's my opinion so lose the chip on your little taru shoulder please. You have mentioned me personally way to much in these last few pages. All the power to Neku-whatever and anyone else who wants a gaming experience that takes 100s of hours to get anywhere, whatever rubs your Buddha, I'm saying not in this game please, I am happy with it.

Oh I'm a pretty chill person. The one saying unhealthy, obsessive, etc was not you, obviously, never said you were. That's why I quoted one by one. You did say however, that other guy had no life only because he likes to dedicate more hours to a game. You can post your opinions, but don't judge others the way you do. It comes off as rude. There was no reason for you to offend someone telling them they have no life, specially when you don't even know them. You could've easily avoided the rude remarks while at the same time stating your opinion about not wanting to invest more hours into something. Simple as that. There is a reason he felt offended and it is clear as the sun.

Also don't understimate Lalafells/tarus, we are like piranhas, every tiny deep bite in your sleep counts, Mr. Hyur. Size ain't it all. (By the way, I was a Hyur once, just recently switched to lala, so there's more hyur running in my veins)