More Horizontal Progression please

[Hyrist]

Now we have an expert on phsycology that dictates what's healthy and what's not on someone's else's life. The guy lives his life however he wants, he has a job and he pays for his entertainment and actually has hours to spend on it, and he can't even ask for content that actually takes time to invest, in a game he's paying for. It's a choice, if you want to spend time on something, you get the reward, if you don't then you don't do it and keep doing your usual things. Why are people so against people having options in a game?

I never said such things. I cautioned that his parading his gamertime could discredit his argument as it could be considered unhealthy. Please understand. I too am a games hobbyist and have spent quite a deal of time playing games and observing and participating in games culture. But I do not profess that this makes me a games expert nor that my opinion should be weighed heavier than others.

Also, no one has ever said that they are against 'options', by my observations. Merely people who are weighing against the pros and cons of these options and the feasibility of such recommendations. It's when both sides try to completely discredit one another that these discussions gets unnecessarily heated.

I was not talking about you when I said I can't stand this community. I was quoting the other guy whose posts were judgamental and offensive. But you also don't come off as respecting someone who plays more than you do when saying unhealthy, obsessively, not a badge of honor, etc. And yes I only enjoy people in this community who are reasonable and have common sense.

Yet you were speaking in broad strokes, which would, by virtue of diction, include me, and yourself, argumentatively.

Perhaps it's something not important to you. I can't presume as to your viewpoints on this. But I would argue that it's important that we try to embody the kind of demeanor we wish to see, rather then become enraptured in the negativity of the environment and express our exasperation for it. That, for me, would be common sense. Nothing we say here, ultimately is of great worth, but we might as well try to make it worthwhile to read, yes?


As far as people calling the WoW model a failure, most games that get called "WoW Clones" were missing important components of business structure that enabled Wolrd of Warcraft to have its sucess. Some of those components are shared with Square Enix, and was discussed as such during one of the early interviews regarding a Realm Reborn.

Please remember, FFXIV has already addressed a 'failure' and people called A Realm Reborn much the same. But all indications point that the game is actually becoming more successful, not less. We may wish to avoid the 'failure' debate until the usual sources start showing indications of heavy decline.

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

I never said such things. I cautioned that his parading his gamertime could discredit his argument as it could be considered unhealthy. Please understand. I too am a games hobbyist and have spent quite a deal of time playing games and observing and participating in games culture. But I do not profess that this makes me a games expert nor that my opinion should be weighed heavier than others.

...

I apologize if my posts towards you was a bit aggressive. I'm a very patient gal but after years of seeing people bash on others judgamentally, it's a thing that I don't tolerate anymore, if there is something I don't agree with I will speak out. It's okay to post opinions as long as you respect someone else's decisions and not judge them for that. The wording of your posts gave off that vibe, thank you for the clarification, though.

So basically, what you're saying, is that you want no lifer, 15 hour MMO days back?

See what I mean, Hyrist? lol

[Hyrist]

I apologize if my posts towards you was a bit aggressive. I'm a very patient gal but after years of seeing people bash on others judgamentally, it's a thing that I don't tolerate anymore, if there is something I don't agree with I will speak out. It's okay to post opinions as long as you respect someone else's decisions and not judge them for that. The wording of your posts gave off that vibe, thank you for the clarification, though.



See what I mean, Hyrist? lol

I do, the criticism works both ways. Both sides of the conversation has a problem with striking out at the other. The question on having extended gameplay could be phrased a lot better.

Mind if I ask in my way instead?

We are running into a society that very much emphasis multitasking and consumes much more of our available downtime. Social media, the adaptation of RPG elements into other genre's of games (extending their use time), and the continual production of the online element - all of this distracts from what was typically a medium that could pretty much take over something as benign as watching television without consequence. In the end, we're a lot busier now than we were years ago, and it's showing in our trends.

I feel as if we're getting a lot more resistance to the slow-process content because of this factor, as well as the fact that the majority of the MMO base is wiser to the typical tropes used to stretch out content. In the face of this, you ask for more options.

As a counter-argument I would say that such long-term goals, when tied to progression, feel less like an option, and more like an obligation if a player wishes to stay current enough to play with friends who have differing playstyles. This is a problem we usually did not encounter in the older age MMOs, because our audience was so much more niche back then - if you coulden't fit the playstyle, you diddn't really play the game, and your cicles narrowed more because of it. FFXIV, by my impressions, seems to try to deviate away from that kind of target audience.

So, I have two questions along the vein of the feedback you received, in a far more respectful tone.

Given what I said above, would you be ok with accepting the unintentional (yet still possible) consequence of alienating a size-able portion of the base ,by expanding endgame in such a way that requires more investment?

And would you be willing to, barring above, participate or entertain in a non-progression aspect of the game that required such an investment as an option?

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

I do, the criticism works both ways. Both sides of the conversation has a problem with striking out at the other. The question on having extended gameplay could be phrased a lot better.

Mind if I ask in my way instead?

I'm going to comment on this based on my personal experience. Having more options does not aleniate the player base imo. When I played FFXI, I was a midcore player. Relics and Mythics were hardcore things to get back then and I never got them. It was an option that only those with the determination could get. That never prevented me from joining HNM LSs or doing end game, at all. I got the best 3rd in the list, which was Empyrean Weapons and we cleared content perfectly. No one forced you to have the best of the best and there was always side grades you could use, instead. There were always one or two top LSs on each server who needed you to have certain pieces only for certain jobs like BRD or PLD in order to apply, but people had a choice not to apply to these super hardcore LSs in the first place. That or some LSs were nice enough to help you work towards the relic if you promised to dedicate to it.

That's what I did, I looked for LSs with same mind as me, more midcore. My fun was not diminished only because I couldn't invest that much time to get a relic. Hardcores had their fun, while midcores had theirs. And then there was the casuals, who slowly were getting into the midcore scene, who also had their own fun at their own pace. I had tons of friends from the 3 spectrums and played together.

Having options keeps the community at ease, everyone minding their own business. I think it's selfish of people not wanting to implement OPTIONS for other players with a different playstyle who want to strive for more when 1. it won't even affect them 2. it makes the game more fun to others, which means more subscription retention. People are honestly being extreme and paranoid about nothing.

People are not saying "stop making casual content, delete all the casual content in game, no more vertical progress", they are saying "we want more options for players like us" "more horizontal progression". Vertical progression is not bad, just like horizontal isn't, either. The problem with the game is that it's purely vertical progression and on top of that, in an extreme way, where working towards something means little when content gets outdated this fast. If there was a balance between the two, we'd have less players complaining, more players having fun and happy, more money for SE.

Hell, I was even in an all BST/SMN only LS for Sky, which would've been considered not optimal to the eyes of the super hardcore. But guess what, no one cared! In fact, hardcore people found it interesting that we beat content with BST and SMNs only, two jobs that were considered non-optimal for end game. It was a choice. A choice that we had and we all had fun, while hardcores had theirs.

[Hyrist]

<snip>.

I have similar experiences to you when FFXI came along, however, my community experiences were vastly different.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with the points here. Not that they need not to include more options, but more that they need to be cautious while doing so. I do have to move away form my computer now so I can't expand on that as I would like. But it boils down to this: We already have a wide variety of content, but everyone still feels content starved. The wider we go, the bigger that problem becomes. A way to resolve that is to keep content accessible by the masses. Right now, indications show that more difficult content, like Savage Alexander, is not.

When implementing more options, especially when requiring more investment, I feel as if they need to be careful not to alienate other players. I do not feel as if FFXI can be an appropriate parallel to draw in this, for a myriad of reasons.

[Alipoprocks]

We already have a wide variety of content, but everyone still feels content starved.

What wide variety of content? There is a lot of content, but unless you are just picking up the game right now, you have already done it and have no need to do it again - except to help someone. This is the problem with vertical progression that happens in short cycles.

For example, Bismark is a fun fight. It's not too hard and not faceroll easy (well, it can be with a bunch of overgeared ppl). I would totally love to farm this fight, but there is no reason to farm for a 175 weapon. Now I just do it when someone asks for help with a clear which isn't very often.
Everything before Bismark is even more worthless even for a new player.

It would be nice if the vertical progression was slowed a bit and more content was introduced at the same level, more variety of ways to get items at the same level, not higher.

[Hyrist]

What wide variety of content? There is a lot of content, but unless you are just picking up the game right now, you have already done it and have no need to do it again - except to help someone. This is the problem with vertical progression that happens in short cycles.

Rather than make a numerated list that could sound belitteling. I would rather simply cite that the true breath of content is not entirely progression nor even battle related. Crafting and casual pursuits of various kinds that, when you do list them all, is quite extensive.

The content that you say is also outdated is part of that casual pursuits.

It narrows the scope of content significantly to think of the game as only the vertical progression climb. That is why I asked the question on whether or it would be acceptable to have a long term goal that required investment, but was not a part of the progression mechanic. Content like this could stand the test of time and level increases and provide more entertainment for players.

However, I've observed that a lot of players here on the boards in particular seem only interested in the progression mechanic itself. Which, I honestly feel does the breath of the game a grave injustice.

The problem is ,because SE is spreading out expanding all of this content round-robin style, if a player is only interested in one particular thing or a small subset of goals, say - only interested in current battle content, not any of the unique glamour drops in any of the dungeons, for instance - the game feels sparse, even though there is a great deal of content in total, distributed thinly among other content categories.

It is a concern of mine that the more they broaden the content field, the thinner all fields become. There's a finite amount of man-hours a static team can dedicate to development, and I don't think the Corporate SE overlords will be inclined to put much more crew on.

That said, those longer cycles before increasing the ilvl cap? I agree. Not sure how they would implement progressive content like Alexander in situations like that, but they could half the rate we have maximum ilvl increases and provide broader content in that manner and I think it would go over better for all involved.

Almost 40 pages and no Dev response?

Horizontal vs Vertical endgame is a matter that's long since been addressed. It was literally addressed back in Beta, and again at release. I don't expect substantial changes on this matter.