More Horizontal Progression please

[Nadirah]

Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

Last game that tried to go the "hardcore" route, was WildStar. And we all saw where that went.

There have been a few "sandbox" style games started up on Kickstarter. AFAIK, none of them have actually gone anywhere.

800+ hours into a game? #puke I couldn't imagine that. Put into perspective, granting an 8 hour sleep(lower spectrum bc you're not really exerting yourself) you have spent 2 months of your life playing this for...what? I have played FFXIV since launch and I have clocked 387 hours, over 3 years now. I wouldn't mind less tier gearing, but I don't have the time sink you seem to have, so I am glad this game is programmed the way it is. I should not be barred from doing Savage just bc I have a life and you seem to not have one.

I have 500 hours in my Skyrim install. If Steam wasn't tracking it, I wouldn't even know.

And since that's the only game I have on Steam with tracking, it doesn't count Oblivion and Morrowind, which I've probably put just as many hours into.

And all of my WoW toons is probably pushing 800 days added up, however I'd played that for 10 years. My oldest EQ2 character, I can't even give you an age for. Her creation date was reset when I transferred her to Butcherblock in 2006, before they corrected that bug.

lol, I don't think you know what a failure is. By your definition, every MMO is a failure because one day they will be shut down.




Guaranteed to make money that's why every MMO that copied WoW lasted for years and made tons of ca.... OH WAIT:

Oh sorry, the current strategy is to just go F2P and turn the game into bigger trash.



WoW's design past TBC/WotLK (which ARR Xeroxed off of) is so good, that is why they haven't dropped in subs.... OH WAIT:



(Someone added the last part for WoD, but as of Aug, is at 5.6Mil: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2015/08/0...-to-56-million)

I love how people point to Post-TBC as some epitome of MMO grateness when WoW's been losing subs left and right.

Wrath of the Lich king was the epitome of WoW's greatness, and it's what I picked up from this game.

Cataclysm, they tried to bring back the difficulty, and added the air of Verant's "tough shit, deal with it" that never went away. They promptly went the other direction and made it too easy. WoD is just lacking in content in general, with the same cocky attitudes that cost them subs in Cata.

That said, I *loved* Cataclysm and it's difficulty level in dungeons. It wasn't for everyone.

Every product also, has a shelf life. WoW's hit it's peak a long time ago. It's 10 years old. No game lasts forever.

[Magis]

Let me rephrase failure then. It's a failure in the current market.

The forumla works. That the same thing as saying a movie staring batman that only has 300 k of funding will be a success. There are more variables at work then just the type of game.

Except for all the MMOs that failed under WoW's model and either are stagnant or went F2P. Tera, ESO, SWOR... the only one I can think of that hasn't been a failure is EVE Online and funny enough, that is an earlier 2003ish MMO that decided to go against the "formula".

The formula doesn't work, why? Because people who want to play WoW are already playing WoW. People who quit WoW are bored of WoW's system and want something else. FFXIV is actually an interesting anomaly, mostly being backed by brand due to the large population of people who "never played an MMO before" as well as the unique circumstances of it's creation (1.0 the giant failure, 2.0 success). However, the WoW formula had little to do with it's success since if it was the case, the other clones should have also been.

The fact there even is a "formula" shows how stagnant and manufactured MMOs are these days. Gone are the days of creating a virtual world for people to "live"/"adventure" in... now it's a giant content delivery system with a new coat of paint or some gimmick.

[Hyrist]

Now we have an expert on phsycology that dictates what's healthy and what's not on someone's else's life. The guy lives his life however he wants, he has a job and he pays for his entertainment and actually has hours to spend on it, and he can't even ask for content that actually takes time to invest, in a game he's paying for. It's a choice, if you want to spend time on something, you get the reward, if you don't then you don't do it and keep doing your usual things. Why are people so against people having options in a game?

I never said such things. I cautioned that his parading his gamertime could discredit his argument as it could be considered unhealthy. Please understand. I too am a games hobbyist and have spent quite a deal of time playing games and observing and participating in games culture. But I do not profess that this makes me a games expert nor that my opinion should be weighed heavier than others.

Also, no one has ever said that they are against 'options', by my observations. Merely people who are weighing against the pros and cons of these options and the feasibility of such recommendations. It's when both sides try to completely discredit one another that these discussions gets unnecessarily heated.

I was not talking about you when I said I can't stand this community. I was quoting the other guy whose posts were judgamental and offensive. But you also don't come off as respecting someone who plays more than you do when saying unhealthy, obsessively, not a badge of honor, etc. And yes I only enjoy people in this community who are reasonable and have common sense.

Yet you were speaking in broad strokes, which would, by virtue of diction, include me, and yourself, argumentatively.

Perhaps it's something not important to you. I can't presume as to your viewpoints on this. But I would argue that it's important that we try to embody the kind of demeanor we wish to see, rather then become enraptured in the negativity of the environment and express our exasperation for it. That, for me, would be common sense. Nothing we say here, ultimately is of great worth, but we might as well try to make it worthwhile to read, yes?


As far as people calling the WoW model a failure, most games that get called "WoW Clones" were missing important components of business structure that enabled Wolrd of Warcraft to have its sucess. Some of those components are shared with Square Enix, and was discussed as such during one of the early interviews regarding a Realm Reborn.

Please remember, FFXIV has already addressed a 'failure' and people called A Realm Reborn much the same. But all indications point that the game is actually becoming more successful, not less. We may wish to avoid the 'failure' debate until the usual sources start showing indications of heavy decline.

[karateorangutang]

Except for all the MMOs that failed under WoW's model and either are stagnant or went F2P. Tera, ESO, SWOR... the only one I can think of that hasn't been a failure is EVE Online and funny enough, that is an earlier 2003ish MMO that decided to go against the "formula".

The formula doesn't work, why? Because people who want to play WoW are already playing WoW. People who quit WoW are bored of WoW's system and want something else. FFXIV is actually an interesting anomaly, mostly being backed by brand due to the large population of people who "never played an MMO before" as well as the unique circumstances of it's creation (1.0 the giant failure, 2.0 success). However, the WoW formula had little to do with it's success since if it was the case, the other clones should have also been.

The fact there even is a "formula" shows how stagnant and manufactured MMOs are these days. Gone are the days of creation a virtual world for people to "live" in... now it's a giant content delivery system with a new coat of paint or some gimmick.

Except alot of people that played WoW are now here... and alot of people play this game.

SWOR was bioware's first foray into a real actual MMO.
ESO was developed by Zenimax which is a subsidiary from Bethesda... they didn't even participate in development outside of naming it.
Tera was made by Bluehole studios.... yup you guessed it low funding.

SE has capital. They can push this sort of thing to it's potential because of that. If you make a race car out of aluminum foil and a toothpick it wont go very fast. It's not the design, its the materials and money that can be pushed into it.

[Nadirah]

3-4 hrs a week eh? Facebook and mobile games are that way, thank you. ====>

Shocking news, there's people who actually like PLAYING a game and you act like investing hours into something they actually find fun is something to puke at? And then on top of that pulling the no life argument. SO mature. By the way, you are already investing countless hours into Savage for gear that will be obsolete in a couple months. Arrogance and prejudice at its best. You think you are better than others only because you play less? You are less dedicated to games, that's what it is, you live your life however the hell you want and you leave others to live their lives however the hell they want.

Didn't mean to offend? this post was quite offensive and judgamental:

I seriously can't stand this community

So basically, what you're saying, is that you want no lifer, 15 hour MMO days back?

There's games for that. They come from Korea still.

Except for all the MMOs that failed under WoW's model and either are stagnant or went F2P. Tera, ESO, SWOR... the only one I can think of that hasn't been a failure is EVE Online and funny enough, that is an earlier 2003ish MMO that decided to go against the "formula".

The formula doesn't work, why? Because people who want to play WoW are already playing WoW. People who quit WoW are bored of WoW's system and want something else. FFXIV is actually an interesting anomaly, mostly being backed by brand due to the large population of people who "never played an MMO before" as well as the unique circumstances of it's creation (1.0 the giant failure, 2.0 success). However, the WoW formula had little to do with it's success since if it was the case, the other clones should have also been.

The fact there even is a "formula" shows how stagnant and manufactured MMOs are these days. Gone are the days of creating a virtual world for people to "live"/"adventure" in... now it's a giant content delivery system with a new coat of paint or some gimmick.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure ESO was always going to go F2P when the consoles came out.

It was marketed at the ES crowd. Those folks could never fathom paying monthly for a game on top of buying it(general statement, there are exceptions). MANY console only gamers are like this.

Except alot of people that played WoW are now here... and alot of people play this game.

SWOR was bioware's first foray into a real actual MMO.
ESO was developed by Zenimax which is a subsidiary from Bethesda... they didn't even participate in development outside of naming it.
Tera was made by Bluehole studios.... yup you guessed it low funding.

SE has capital. They can push this sort of thing to it's potential because of that. If you make a race car out of aluminum foil and a toothpick it wont go very fast. It's not the design, its the materials and money that can be pushed into it.

Actually, Zenimax is NOT a subsidiary from Bethesda.

Zenimax Media owns both Zenimax Online Studios and Bethesda Softworks/Bethesda Game Studios. Among other things, id Software (Doom, Quake) IS a subsidiary of Bethesda.
And Bethesda is more involved in making sure the lore stays on track, as it's a small part of a larger universe. Yes, ESO is fully TES canon. The lore is one of the single most important things to the Bethesda team and they didn't want ZOS mucking it up.

And they quite frankly, have more money than you could remotely think of. Thing is, they're not publicly traded, so these things are not common knowledge.

[Magis]

SWOR was bioware's first foray into a real actual MMO.
ESO was developed by Zenimax which is a subsidiary from Bethesda... they didn't even participate in development outside of naming it.
Tera was made by Bluehole studios.... yup you guessed it low funding.

SE has capital. They can push this sort of thing to it's potential because of that. If you make a race car out of aluminum foil and a toothpick it wont go very fast. It's not the design, its the materials and money that can be pushed into it.

You kinda avoided my statement though: Money isn't going to make a boring game not boring, and the circumstances of their design choices doesn't change the fact they chose WoW's system and the failure that happened because of it. SE too had little time to rewrite the game so they decided to copy WoW and omitted or reused a lot of content (yet it didn't seem to change after HW either).

[Tyla_Esmeraude]

I never said such things. I cautioned that his parading his gamertime could discredit his argument as it could be considered unhealthy. Please understand. I too am a games hobbyist and have spent quite a deal of time playing games and observing and participating in games culture. But I do not profess that this makes me a games expert nor that my opinion should be weighed heavier than others.

...

I apologize if my posts towards you was a bit aggressive. I'm a very patient gal but after years of seeing people bash on others judgamentally, it's a thing that I don't tolerate anymore, if there is something I don't agree with I will speak out. It's okay to post opinions as long as you respect someone else's decisions and not judge them for that. The wording of your posts gave off that vibe, thank you for the clarification, though.

So basically, what you're saying, is that you want no lifer, 15 hour MMO days back?

See what I mean, Hyrist? lol

[karateorangutang]

You kinda avoided my statement though: Money isn't going to make a boring game not boring, and the circumstances of their design choices doesn't change the fact they chose WoW's system and the failure that happened because of it. SE too had little time to rewrite the game so they decided to copy WoW and omitted or reused a lot of content (yet it didn't seem to change after HW either).

Boring is subjective. I'm not bored at all, in fact theres plenty of content I haven't even touched. ARR has even gone on the record to state they borrowed ideas from WoW. I love the game, I'm busy the whole time I'm on and see no real issues with the limits and content they have in place. In fact I have games that I haven't even opened because I have to struggle to keep up with my raid group.

[karateorangutang]

Actually, Zenimax is NOT a subsidiary from Bethesda.

Zenimax Media owns both Zenimax Online Studios and Bethesda Softworks/Bethesda Game Studios. Among other things, id Software (Doom, Quake) IS a subsidiary of Bethesda.
And Bethesda is more involved in making sure the lore stays on track, as it's a small part of a larger universe. Yes, ESO is fully TES canon. The lore is one of the single most important things to the Bethesda team and they didn't want ZOS mucking it up.

And they quite frankly, have more money than you could remotely think of. Thing is, they're not publicly traded, so these things are not common knowledge.

Well Google did me wrong then lol. Regardless Bethesda does have a huge focus on lore. Their gameplay in games has always been spotty, however they are generally beautiful and realized worlds.

[Magis]

Boring is subjective. I'm not bored at all, in fact theres plenty of content I haven't even touched. ARR has even gone on the record to state they borrowed ideas from WoW. I love the game, I'm busy the whole time I'm on and see no real issues with the limits and content they have in place.

Cool, good for you! I'm not talking about the individual though. I am talking about the general population, and those who tried the above MMOs found them boring or fun for a short while. Sub money didn't come in and they collapsed.

With the amount of people right now complaining about Heavensward's endgame, it seems there is a large population that is indeed bored with the game. Not just bored though, but also discouraged by future content due to it being a predictive repeat of content before. FFXIV isn't some magical game that can't fall into the same traps as all of the games around it. Those who are vocal about it are so because they want to stick with the game. Those who don't care just quit and find something new.

I am sure there were people like you going "I'm not bored with <insert failed game here> at all!" and then a few months later the game collapsed.