More Horizontal Progression please

[karateorangutang]

snip

Let me rephrase failure then. It's a failure in the current market.

The forumla works. That the same thing as saying a movie staring batman that only has 300 k of funding will be a success. There are more variables at work then just the type of game.

[Magis]

Let me rephrase failure then. It's a failure in the current market.

The forumla works. That the same thing as saying a movie staring batman that only has 300 k of funding will be a success. There are more variables at work then just the type of game.

Except for all the MMOs that failed under WoW's model and either are stagnant or went F2P. Tera, ESO, SWOR... the only one I can think of that hasn't been a failure is EVE Online and funny enough, that is an earlier 2003ish MMO that decided to go against the "formula".

The formula doesn't work, why? Because people who want to play WoW are already playing WoW. People who quit WoW are bored of WoW's system and want something else. FFXIV is actually an interesting anomaly, mostly being backed by brand due to the large population of people who "never played an MMO before" as well as the unique circumstances of it's creation (1.0 the giant failure, 2.0 success). However, the WoW formula had little to do with it's success since if it was the case, the other clones should have also been.

The fact there even is a "formula" shows how stagnant and manufactured MMOs are these days. Gone are the days of creating a virtual world for people to "live"/"adventure" in... now it's a giant content delivery system with a new coat of paint or some gimmick.

[karateorangutang]

Except for all the MMOs that failed under WoW's model and either are stagnant or went F2P. Tera, ESO, SWOR... the only one I can think of that hasn't been a failure is EVE Online and funny enough, that is an earlier 2003ish MMO that decided to go against the "formula".

The formula doesn't work, why? Because people who want to play WoW are already playing WoW. People who quit WoW are bored of WoW's system and want something else. FFXIV is actually an interesting anomaly, mostly being backed by brand due to the large population of people who "never played an MMO before" as well as the unique circumstances of it's creation (1.0 the giant failure, 2.0 success). However, the WoW formula had little to do with it's success since if it was the case, the other clones should have also been.

The fact there even is a "formula" shows how stagnant and manufactured MMOs are these days. Gone are the days of creation a virtual world for people to "live" in... now it's a giant content delivery system with a new coat of paint or some gimmick.

Except alot of people that played WoW are now here... and alot of people play this game.

SWOR was bioware's first foray into a real actual MMO.
ESO was developed by Zenimax which is a subsidiary from Bethesda... they didn't even participate in development outside of naming it.
Tera was made by Bluehole studios.... yup you guessed it low funding.

SE has capital. They can push this sort of thing to it's potential because of that. If you make a race car out of aluminum foil and a toothpick it wont go very fast. It's not the design, its the materials and money that can be pushed into it.

[Magis]

SWOR was bioware's first foray into a real actual MMO.
ESO was developed by Zenimax which is a subsidiary from Bethesda... they didn't even participate in development outside of naming it.
Tera was made by Bluehole studios.... yup you guessed it low funding.

SE has capital. They can push this sort of thing to it's potential because of that. If you make a race car out of aluminum foil and a toothpick it wont go very fast. It's not the design, its the materials and money that can be pushed into it.

You kinda avoided my statement though: Money isn't going to make a boring game not boring, and the circumstances of their design choices doesn't change the fact they chose WoW's system and the failure that happened because of it. SE too had little time to rewrite the game so they decided to copy WoW and omitted or reused a lot of content (yet it didn't seem to change after HW either).

[karateorangutang]

You kinda avoided my statement though: Money isn't going to make a boring game not boring, and the circumstances of their design choices doesn't change the fact they chose WoW's system and the failure that happened because of it. SE too had little time to rewrite the game so they decided to copy WoW and omitted or reused a lot of content (yet it didn't seem to change after HW either).

Boring is subjective. I'm not bored at all, in fact theres plenty of content I haven't even touched. ARR has even gone on the record to state they borrowed ideas from WoW. I love the game, I'm busy the whole time I'm on and see no real issues with the limits and content they have in place. In fact I have games that I haven't even opened because I have to struggle to keep up with my raid group.

[Magis]

Boring is subjective. I'm not bored at all, in fact theres plenty of content I haven't even touched. ARR has even gone on the record to state they borrowed ideas from WoW. I love the game, I'm busy the whole time I'm on and see no real issues with the limits and content they have in place.

Cool, good for you! I'm not talking about the individual though. I am talking about the general population, and those who tried the above MMOs found them boring or fun for a short while. Sub money didn't come in and they collapsed.

With the amount of people right now complaining about Heavensward's endgame, it seems there is a large population that is indeed bored with the game. Not just bored though, but also discouraged by future content due to it being a predictive repeat of content before. FFXIV isn't some magical game that can't fall into the same traps as all of the games around it. Those who are vocal about it are so because they want to stick with the game. Those who don't care just quit and find something new.

I am sure there were people like you going "I'm not bored with <insert failed game here> at all!" and then a few months later the game collapsed.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Ok this argument is going nowhere. Money talks.... if subs start dropping then you might see a shift in methodology. However, it is my opinion that as long as we pump money into the machine that it will stay the course. Why pay money if you aren't having fun? It's not like there's a shortage of electronic entertainment on the market.

[Hyrist]

I am sure there were people like you going "I'm not bored with <insert failed game here> at all!" and then a few months later the game collapsed.

This is true, but none of them had the backbone FFXIV can rely upon to keep going, and most of them, including titles released after a Relam Reborn came out, have gone free to play in a much shorter time period. All indications point to FFXIV still being successful. Including evidence gathered by independent observers of the game's populace.

The question I pose to you is - at what time-frame do you consider FFXIV its own success? And at what time should the community consider FFXIV a successful game? Because right now, the evidence is against you, and has been against many of those stating that the game is currently 'doomed if it does not get dramatically changed' for going on two years now. I think it is fair to say that FFXIV has had a successful two years. Will more, differing content need to be produced for its continuing sucess? Of course, but the degree of such is always speculation. For now, we have no indicators, save for a vocal presence calling out the potential fall of the game, that this game is in any danger. And that same presence has been here for two years.

It's difficult to objectively give this argument merit right now. I'm sorry. I understand your opinion, but what you are calling for hasn't happened yet and show no distinctive indications of happening. Opinions on gameplay changes should not be weighed more heavily because of what seems to be unsubstantiated fear.