More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

We got pretty far off topic eh?

Anyway, some of this stuff is pretty good and could be implemented. However, MMO's need to attract more casual players than hardcore players to survive. You need a way to create enough content to make casual players feel at home then you need a smaller set of challenging content to keep them interested beyond the beginning. Now changing dungeon mechanics to include things like harder pulls would be cool, but only really affects the tank class. It's very difficult to make a dynamic that affects all the party members. Especially when roles are so defined in an MMO game.

Equivalating Dark Souls and GTA to a MMO is... like comparing apples and oranges. They have completely different gameplay types and endgame goals for the player. Plus a MMO game based on twitch response is a recipe for disaster. I would require even smaller instanced areas for the server to handle the load.

There's a specific reason why MMO content is decidedly simplistic or extremely difficult. It's to make the design to progression ratio easy to deal with. They either have to make it easy to make so that it can be pumped out en masse, or they take their time and make it so difficult that it takes months to be able to clear. It's a massive undertaking to create a new content and there needs to be a way to deal with the sheer amount of customers they need to deal with.

No, SWGEmu is still alive with 3000-4000 players. Supported by Donations. Even though its very old and buggy since they don't have all the tools its not dead. It was a very very niche MMO too, 300k subscribers before it was shut down.

Actually no, your wrong.

GTA/Dark Souls both have a lot of Elements SWG had.

SWG had cities you could build yourself and dynamic zones and being able to take over others cities and make your own content. SWG had no levels when it began which meant all content is endgame content.
SWG also had deep hard and challenging zones like Dark Souls does that made you pay a LOT of attention to things around you or you died.


YOU "can" make an MMO like it. Its POSSIBLE.

Sword Art Online for example, and Log Horizon are BOTH MMOs (not real ones!) but ones like this!


Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

[karateorangutang]

YOU "can" make an MMO like it. Its POSSIBLE.

Sure, but expecting it to be achieved in a MMO that is already coded is foolhardy. Alot of these things you guys are discussing would completely change the feel and focus of this game.

GTA/Dark Souls both have a lot of Elements SWG had.

I guess I'm missing your point here. SWG is old and failing, so no company in their right mind is gonna use this as a template for success. 3000-4000 players would be a pittance for even a small game company. Additionally, making any sort of twitch gameplay in a MMO does two things:
1. You need the server speed to deal with the pings. With over a million subscribers in XIV that would require a vast network.
2. You are limiting the type of gamer that will buy your product. There are a ton of players that love MMO style combat for its simplicity. Maybe they prefer it or they have a disability that hinders their ability to react quickly to a stimulus. MMO's give that type of gamer a clear and achievable goal.

FFXIV is a extremely casual game. It's meant to be that way. Why is it that everyone wants to change that so badly?

Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

No, because you have to be able to assure yourself a payday at the end of it. Why do you think we are seeing things like reboots of movies and all the superhero movies. They are cash cows that are guaranteed money. It's not about creativity or the human spirit flying around in a colorful rainbow. The gaming industry has to make money to stay active.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Sure, but expecting it to be achieved in a MMO that is already coded is foolhardy. Alot of these things you guys are discussing would completely change the feel and focus of this game.

I'm not talking about this game. This game is set in stone.

I guess I'm missing your point here. SWG is old and failing, so no company in their right mind is gonna use this as a template for success. 3000-4000 players would be a pittance for even a small game company. Additionally, making any sort of twitch gameplay in a MMO does two things:
1. You need the server speed to deal with the pings. With over a million subscribers in XIV that would require a vast network.
2. You are limiting the type of gamer that will buy your product. There are a ton of players that love MMO style combat for its simplicity. Maybe they prefer it or they have a disability that hinders their ability to react quickly to a stimulus. MMO's give that type of gamer a clear and achievable goal.

SWG never "failed" it had a million subscribers at its peak and this was before WoW and MMOs were popular in general. Starwars in MMOs made it have a niche audience since it wasn't Fantasy it was Scifi. Scifi MMOs are NOT as popular as fantasy ones.

2000-4000 Players is only on the Emu's players playing. There are only 2000-4000 players playing a server in FFXIV right now. I am not talking about Subscribers.

FFXIV is a extremely casual game. It's meant to be that way. Why is it that everyone wants to change that so badly?

Not wanting to change it. That isn't part of the current discussion.



No, because you have to be able to assure yourself a payday at the end of it. Why do you think we are seeing things like reboots of movies and all the superhero movies. They are cash cows that are guaranteed money. It's not about creativity or the human spirit flying around in a colorful rainbow. The gaming industry has to make money to stay active.

Indeed, however making too much of the same thing means as soon as the next big thing comes out your game is deserted. Movies only profit like this because you already get your pay out of it.

Corrected you there.

It seems like you have never played an MMO before 2005. Honestly, that is what I see.

I feel sorry for gamers these days. They will never experience true beauty.

[karateorangutang]

In regards to it not concerning this game:

Maybe this should be in a different thread altogether then. I was pretty sure we were talking about FFXIV since we are in those forums.

In regards to SWG:

If servers are shutting down... then its a failure. Whether or not it was huge at one point is really irrelevant. Its failing because its not what an audience wants.

Concerning the success of MMO's

The WoW formula is guaranteed money. You take it and you twist it slightly and you walk away with a pay day. Ford doesn't change the Mustang randomly to make it more marketable. They keep it familiar to keep people comfortable. People like comfortable.

[Magis]

In regards to SWG:

If servers are shutting down... then its a failure. Whether or not it was huge at one point is really irrelevant. Its failing because its not what an audience wants.

lol, I don't think you know what a failure is. By your definition, every MMO is a failure because one day they will be shut down.

In regards to it not concerning this game:

Concerning the success of MMO's

The WoW formula is guaranteed money. You take it and you twist it slightly and you walk away with a pay day. Ford doesn't change the Mustang randomly to make it more marketable. They keep it familiar to keep people comfortable. People like comfortable.

Guaranteed to make money that's why every MMO that copied WoW lasted for years and made tons of ca.... OH WAIT:

Oh sorry, the current strategy is to just go F2P and turn the game into bigger trash.



WoW's design past TBC/WotLK (which ARR Xeroxed off of) is so good, that is why they haven't dropped in subs.... OH WAIT:



(Someone added the last part for WoD, but as of Aug, is at 5.6Mil: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2015/08/0...-to-56-million)

I love how people point to Post-TBC as some epitome of MMO grateness when WoW's been losing subs left and right.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Let me rephrase failure then. It's a failure in the current market.

The forumla works. That the same thing as saying a movie staring batman that only has 300 k of funding will be a success. There are more variables at work then just the type of game.

[Magis]

Let me rephrase failure then. It's a failure in the current market.

The forumla works. That the same thing as saying a movie staring batman that only has 300 k of funding will be a success. There are more variables at work then just the type of game.

Except for all the MMOs that failed under WoW's model and either are stagnant or went F2P. Tera, ESO, SWOR... the only one I can think of that hasn't been a failure is EVE Online and funny enough, that is an earlier 2003ish MMO that decided to go against the "formula".

The formula doesn't work, why? Because people who want to play WoW are already playing WoW. People who quit WoW are bored of WoW's system and want something else. FFXIV is actually an interesting anomaly, mostly being backed by brand due to the large population of people who "never played an MMO before" as well as the unique circumstances of it's creation (1.0 the giant failure, 2.0 success). However, the WoW formula had little to do with it's success since if it was the case, the other clones should have also been.

The fact there even is a "formula" shows how stagnant and manufactured MMOs are these days. Gone are the days of creating a virtual world for people to "live"/"adventure" in... now it's a giant content delivery system with a new coat of paint or some gimmick.

[Nadirah]

Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

Last game that tried to go the "hardcore" route, was WildStar. And we all saw where that went.

There have been a few "sandbox" style games started up on Kickstarter. AFAIK, none of them have actually gone anywhere.

800+ hours into a game? #puke I couldn't imagine that. Put into perspective, granting an 8 hour sleep(lower spectrum bc you're not really exerting yourself) you have spent 2 months of your life playing this for...what? I have played FFXIV since launch and I have clocked 387 hours, over 3 years now. I wouldn't mind less tier gearing, but I don't have the time sink you seem to have, so I am glad this game is programmed the way it is. I should not be barred from doing Savage just bc I have a life and you seem to not have one.

I have 500 hours in my Skyrim install. If Steam wasn't tracking it, I wouldn't even know.

And since that's the only game I have on Steam with tracking, it doesn't count Oblivion and Morrowind, which I've probably put just as many hours into.

And all of my WoW toons is probably pushing 800 days added up, however I'd played that for 10 years. My oldest EQ2 character, I can't even give you an age for. Her creation date was reset when I transferred her to Butcherblock in 2006, before they corrected that bug.

lol, I don't think you know what a failure is. By your definition, every MMO is a failure because one day they will be shut down.




Guaranteed to make money that's why every MMO that copied WoW lasted for years and made tons of ca.... OH WAIT:

Oh sorry, the current strategy is to just go F2P and turn the game into bigger trash.



WoW's design past TBC/WotLK (which ARR Xeroxed off of) is so good, that is why they haven't dropped in subs.... OH WAIT:



(Someone added the last part for WoD, but as of Aug, is at 5.6Mil: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2015/08/0...-to-56-million)

I love how people point to Post-TBC as some epitome of MMO grateness when WoW's been losing subs left and right.

Wrath of the Lich king was the epitome of WoW's greatness, and it's what I picked up from this game.

Cataclysm, they tried to bring back the difficulty, and added the air of Verant's "tough shit, deal with it" that never went away. They promptly went the other direction and made it too easy. WoD is just lacking in content in general, with the same cocky attitudes that cost them subs in Cata.

That said, I *loved* Cataclysm and it's difficulty level in dungeons. It wasn't for everyone.

Every product also, has a shelf life. WoW's hit it's peak a long time ago. It's 10 years old. No game lasts forever.

[Fendred]

Cataclysm, they tried to bring back the difficulty, and added the air of Verant's "tough shit, deal with it" that never went away. They promptly went the other direction and made it too easy. WoD is just lacking in content in general, with the same cocky attitudes that cost them subs in Cata.

That said, I *loved* Cataclysm and it's difficulty level in dungeons. It wasn't for everyone.

Every product also, has a shelf life. WoW's hit it's peak a long time ago. It's 10 years old. No game lasts forever.

Actually, WoW post Cataclysm wasn't much more difficult than pre-Cataclysm, having played through Cataclysm myself during the transition from Wrath of the Lich King. What I remember was an expansion that broke the leveling experience and undermined the entire story of the last two expansions with writing on the level of the worst kind of fan fiction. Also, the zones weren't a single connected continent, so it undermined the freedom of exploration the game was known for. The writing was just so immersion breaking that watching the results of quests and raids felt like the heart and soul of the game were being rubbed away with sand paper.

None of the heroes from Wrath of the Lich King on the horde side would have ever in their right minds allowed Garrosh to be in a place of power. His actions were so much like the orcs of the Burning Legion and the undead Scourge that he would have been kept far away from any position of meaningful authority. Garrosh wasn't a character. He was a horrid manifestation of some writer's desire to completely destroy that which was built from WoW's launch onwards. The same guy was responsible for the abomination that was Diablo III's launch story.

Sorry if I got a little carried away there. I just hate whoever gave the okay on that guy's writing.