More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

So the 999 roulettes and esoterics farming at Neverreap or Fractal doesn't feel like a chore for you? Well...

It honestly shouldn't of been that way in the first place. There should be at least 3-4 new dungeons and redos of level 50 ones to 60. I'm not asking too much. That is perfectly reasonable for an expansion.

They have more subscribers and are making far more money then EQ2 is, yet producing 25% of the content.

They should have at least 9 remake dungeons (dungeons based on older zones.) and 4 new dungeons with their own unique loot/armor sets and loot tables. Rare items as well.

Each dungeon should have its own armor sets as well, even if its a retexture. However I only really see one set for ALL 2 dungeons.

Heavensward was suppost to be an expansion. I pretty much see an adventure pack. They put too much effort into useless zones that nobody ever goes to. Sorry to sadly say that, but its true. They have beautiful overland zones that are a TOTAL Joke and are unrelevant after you reach level 60.

[Sandpark]

I don't stand around and do nothing.

if I don't have something to do at any given time, I *gasp* log off and go do something else.

The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.

Had this been a decade ago, you wouldn't have very much choice in what games were available.

That's another thing folks forget about those older days. There was next to no competition. Everquest was the *only* game of it's type for a while, and XI never got big marketing. Asheron's Call(first one) didn't get much either, and it never really had a big population.

These were niche games. If they had 100k subscribers, they were lucky for the longest time.

Me? If i spend long hours in a game, I want to do it because I'm having fun. Farming rare drops? Not fun. Sitting on my arse waiting on respawns? Not fun. The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore. If I don't have a reason to log in every day, great. Gives me an excuse to go outside.

They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.



They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety.

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Now, say you got to a quarantined zone. There are zombies everywhere however these zombies in the infested and disease ridden buildings drop some really cool stuff you want, a grind if you will. However! If you do not pay attention to them they swarm you, and if your not with a party of at least 5 people you will usually not make it past the front gate.

Now, not only that. The people in your group and party can also wipe the group by making mistakes. Like pulling too many zombies or making too much noise. If you wipe you start all over as well.

Now, NOT only that. Other groups near you can attract more zombies if they don't play well, which could affect YOUR party too!

Now.. DOES This content, even though your grinding.. does it seem like something /BORING/ and /REPETITIVE/? NO! Your not bored at all! Your trying desperately to stay alive and get your loot!

[Fendred]

@Sandpark

I think the entire issue can be summed up by the developers paying too close attention to WoW and its formula. Even though they never set out with the express objective of creating a "WoW Killer," the core game is set up in the exact same way as other games that did attempt to be "WoW Killers." WoW was only able to throw on loads of polish to its content because of its insane budget. FFXIV is a smaller operation, and should be based on games that are within its operational budget. WoW itself is a kind of evolutionary impasse between a real time tactical RPG and an action game. No action MMORPG has been able to maintain a subscription model despite being well received, so the natural direction FFXIV should take is towards the RTT RPG. There haven't been any major attempts at a more strategic experience, so there is still potential in that direction.

Not to mention, Yoshida's comment about things strongly trending towards F2P can only be said to be true of themepark MMORPGs that take on the form of World of Warcraft.

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

I second this, as I've logged ridiculous hours into Path of Exile (over 600), dying repeatedly, perfecting builds, and cleaving my way through monsters on an ever changing landscape.

[Velhart]

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

Not really Niche. That type of game-play is really popular in animes.

They just think its "ONLY IN VIRTUAL REALITY." like SAO...

Its not Niche, because there has not been an MMO designed for that style of gameplay for... 11-13 years now?

Nothing really like it at the moment.

It can't be niche when there is nobody doing it.


Honestly, that is a popular opinion. However, your wrong.

Statistics do point that you are correct, however the new generation of gamers in an MMO have never really been challenged by anything. They never had a challenged thrusted in their face. They never had a sense of fear when leaving their towns or dangers from the world.

Make a game and treat it like a WORLD INSTEAD of a game.


Your "Popular" game idea, has me logging in BORED doing NOTHING for HOURS because THERE IS NO CONTENT. We have DONE it all. NOTHING challenges me. NOTHING makes me AFRAID. Bosses don't scare me. EVERYTHING IS A CHORE. Yet this is.. fun?

The idea of sitting for 7 months waiting for the next update may sound fun to you. However if you make a game that takes hours upon hours and challenges you... your game will last longer.

What you don't realize, is the popular game is short lived. Until the next "WOW" comes out and everyone leaves and flocks to it because its new and shiny. Now your game is dead. Meanwhile, the "Niche" game still has its same subscribers.

[Sandpark]

@Nektulos-Tuor
When the world reacts to you, it is hardly ever the exact same experience, playing with others adds even more variables. Even if the most beautiful,elaborate dungeon was created, if the world and it's inhabitants don't react to you, it will eventually become less dynamic or interesting.

Pulling enemies or sneaking by them in FFXI was one activity that rewarded or punished you for bad timing. Would it be wise to apply it to the whole game? That would be the users opinion. I say yes and no depending on circumstances. For instance, requiring this cleverness around fed-ex back and forth quest or fates, I would say no.

But if the situation was trying to infiltrate a highly guarded section of some colossal ruins, then it adds context,dynamics, and immersion to gameplay.

Solid Snake knows what these situations are like.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

@Nektulos-Tuor
When the world reacts to you, it is hardly ever the exact same experience, playing with others adds even more variables. Even if the most beautiful,elaborate dungeon was created, if the world and it's inhabitants don't react to you, it will eventually become less dynamic or interesting.

Pulling enemies or sneaking by them in FFXI was one activity that rewarded or punished you for bad timing. Would it be wise to apply it to the whole game? That would be the users opinion. I say yes and no depending on circumstances. For instance, requiring this cleverness around fed-ex back and forth quest or fates, I would say no.

But if the situation was trying to infiltrate a highly guarded section of some colossal ruins, then it adds context,dynamics, and immersion to gameplay.

Solid Snake knows what these situations are like.

Honestly. If you did it in waves. Starting off Slow and getting bigger. It can be fun.

Outside the city its not very dangerous, until night time. Then you have wild wolves actively hunting your group. The more and more you get away from civilization the more dangerous, scary and creepy the world gets. However the more your rewarded for your effort and exploration.

You can still be casual and enjoy the game. However you will never see the same world as people who branch off the safe paths, nore will you ever be as strong as an adventurer who does..

The Safe Path:
Daily Quests.
Quests and Quested Gear.
Cleared out Dungeons. Dungeons cleared off by the Branched Path, making them a lot safer. Casual Gear from it.
Light Group, Solo Content.
More Static part of the World.
20% of the World.

The Branched off Path:
No Quests or daily quests.
A time consuming Contested Dynamic World.
Cannot be soloed, except by highly skilled individuals who explored and have some of the hardest to get gear.
Everything you do makes the world more dangerous, or safer.
Things you do in the game affect the "Safe Path.", meaning the "Safe" path is no longer safe and a new "Safe" path must be made.
You as an adventurer "make" the safe paths for casual players.
You are MUCH stronger then the average player, for branching off into the dangerous world.
You can make yourself almost ten times stronger then the average player.
80% of the World.


The adventures from the Branched Path go around the world, getting the best loot and making it safer for casual players to go in and get their loot and do the dungeons. They make the safe paths and they make the world safer.

Now, you have a dynamic world where casual and hardcore players are married together.

[Sandpark]

If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

There is no need to cater, if it had to then yes, the game is deemed hardcore and played by less players.

There is an avenue for different playstyles, and one playstyle doesn't have to consume the whole game. Instanced dungeons are great for their initial purpose. They don't have to consume the game, there is a place for open dungeons and places requiring savy teamwork dynamics besides boss gimmicks.

Also they don't have to be 2-8 hour marathons in length, but a few areas like that here and there are welcome.

To keep the long marathons from being casual or midcore unfriendly. They could have waypoints/save points in conjunction with duty finder. Say you play 1.5 hrs and you are beat, the content remembers your last save point, you leave group and do something else. When you feel like continuing the descent into hell, you queue up and it drops you into a group at waypoint X. Or you could do it with premade and have some FC content to do together.