More Horizontal Progression please

[Nadirah]

Leaping Lizzy the NM that usually 3-5 people were out there camping and had 2+ hour spawn and could even be like 12 hours because it was a lottery nm and may not even show up. Its not 14 times you have to count all those times you didn't get the claim. I don't think anyone these days would find waiting around 2+ hours in the hopes to claim a weak monster to maybe get a 7% drop.

I, and about 99% of my FC, would find another game.

[NolLacnala]

I think it'd only take fourteen clears to get the item to drop.

[Aeyis]

Because you aren't getting western players to run the same bosses for 7 years.

Last I checked I was a western player.
Also, aren't these western players you are talking about running the same 2 dungeons for months now?

And FFXIclopedia indicates that the Leaping (now Bounding) Boots are a <7% drop rate.

People lament the pain of RNG in instances that guarantee 2 or 4 drops every time they're killed. What do you think their reaction to drop rates like that would be?

Do you know why drop % worked years ago? Because they werent RNG dependant, they were random drops. Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

What we have these days is a horrid system because average no longer applies to it. You could kill a mob a thousand times and never approach the average on its common drops. That is why people complain about RNG.

[Ibi]

Also, aren't these western players you are talking about running the same 2 dungeons for months now?

Are you really trying to suggest that 3 months is the same as several years?

Do you know why drop % worked years ago? Because they werent RNG dependant, they were random drops. Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

...what?

How do you think random numbers and averages work? And what do you think the R in RNG stands for?

[Nadirah]

Last I checked I was a western player.
Also, aren't these western players you are talking about running the same 2 dungeons for months now?




Do you know why drop % worked years ago? Because they werent RNG dependant, they were random drops. Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

What we have these days is a horrid system because average no longer applies to it. You could kill a mob a thousand times and nver approach the average on its common drops. That is why people complain about RNG.

2 months isn't 7 years.

And you have absolutely no idea what RNG is do you? Because "random drop" IS RNG.

RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR.


For example of RNG:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm

Your monster treasure is determined by die rolls. Roll the dice. If the number is a-b, they get this, c-d, they get this, etc.

Same rule is applied to other stuff as well. Your generator for that "random" drop is similar to "roll 100, if you get a 1-7, the item drops, if not, it doesn't."

And no, that doesn't mean you'll get it in X number of kills. You can, in theory, NEVER SEE IT, EVER.

And you think that's a great system. Riiiiight.

Edit: Still waiting for Aeyis to give us proof that it works the way they say it does.

It's a set percentage per kill. That's it. You roll a certain number on that die, you get the item. There is no "averages", there is no "you'll eventually get it because the system is set up that way", but there *is* "it could never ever drop for you, ever, in 10 years."

[LineageRazor]

Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

I played (and am, in fact, still playing) FFXI almost since NA release, and I've never heard of this. As far as anyone ever knew, FFXI was pure RNG. Odds are 7% of getting the boots, and you don't get them this time. What are the odds next time? 7%, plain and simple. FFXI was a merciless game in many ways, pure RNG being just one of them.

If you have documented evidence (preferably explicit info from the FFXI developers rather than player speculation; player speculation was what lead to superstitious hogwash like crafting directions) that this is how they implemented random drops in that game, I'd be very interested to see it!

[AnaviAnael]

I'm ok with horizontal gear as long as it doesn't become, "You don't have X, we can't use you." This happened to me in FFXI when I took a year off. Of course, I got told to do PUG groups to get the gear I needed.

[Aeyis]

Are you really trying to suggest that 3 months is the same as several years?

2 Dungeons for 3 months. Compared to several dozen dungeon or duties for several years. I think the comparison is a decent one.

...what?

How do you think think random numbers and averages work? And what do you think the R in RNG stands for?

You still don't understand it? RNG and random are words used to describe different things. Random (the old way used to calculated mmos) decided drops based on an average number specific for that item. If an item had a 50% drop chance then it would on average drop once every 2 kills. The SD on items would be very small, getting higher as the items drop chance decreases, but still only growing to be somewhat small.

RNG, or random number generator doesnt calculate based on an average. It simply assigns a random item. There's still a [range] safeguard in place, but it has a huge range to it. Unlike its predecessor [random] it's usually not possible to get close to average results.
With RNG an item that has a 50% drop rate might give one player 20 out of 100 kills, and another player 80 out of 100 kills.


But I'm not surprised. Even several years ago many people seem to be clueless about the fact that RNG is a different beast then random/average. Apparently these days people use RNG to describe anything random related, huh.


Random Number Generator

Hint: the reason it's a different thing is because of the second and third words. Because it generates numbers rather then assigning them from a preset list..

[Welsper59]

I'm ok with horizontal gear as long as it doesn't become, "You don't have X, we can't use you." This happened to me in FFXI when I took a year off. Of course, I got told to do PUG groups to get the gear I needed.

Some gear expectations weren't too bad at least. I didn't exactly mind someone temporarily not having at least the NQ staves for casting post 51, but it really wasn't a big of a hit to the bank to buy them. Farming a stack of Black Tiger Fangs (or whatever it was called) could have bought at least 2-3 NQ staves. But yeah, if people expected you to have BiS crap as any role, then screw em.

[Aeyis]

And you think that's a great system. Riiiiight.

Do you even read?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm

I'm not talking DnD ruleset tho. Sorry, did that kill your argument? Obviously anything based on dice isnt going to have much of average in it.

Now lets talk something actually related. Have you ever played an older mmo where the droprates were based on average? Because the ''random'' there wasnt that random anymore over time.


I already said it in my above post, but I'll say it again, just for you:

Random =/RNG. Random can also be used to describe RNG, but RNG cannot be used to describe all forms of random. Why?
Well its basic logic really.

Meta: Random.
Sub: RNG.

RNG is a very specific form of random. ''Old random'' was just assigning a possible yield from a preset list, and then refreshing that list after all values had been exhausting. As a result average would essentially always be met.
''RNG'' randomly generates a number inside a [range] of values. Average? Well if a drop chance is ''50%'' that probably means half the values in the [range] are equal to a yield, and the other half arent.
Just in case it doesnt get ''too ridiculous'' there's always a safeguard such as ''cant get this many-out-of-that-many yields/no yields''.
As we can all see from playing the game the safeguard(s) dont guard against extremes very well at all.


Because if you aim to truly make something [random] something like getting a 1% drop 5 kills in a row, is quite possible.
Which is why RNG (which means Random Number Generator) really sucks. Especially if you dont place the safeguards where players might actually hit average in their lifetime.