More Horizontal Progression please

[Aeyis]

Because you aren't getting western players to run the same bosses for 7 years.

Last I checked I was a western player.
Also, aren't these western players you are talking about running the same 2 dungeons for months now?

And FFXIclopedia indicates that the Leaping (now Bounding) Boots are a <7% drop rate.

People lament the pain of RNG in instances that guarantee 2 or 4 drops every time they're killed. What do you think their reaction to drop rates like that would be?

Do you know why drop % worked years ago? Because they werent RNG dependant, they were random drops. Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

What we have these days is a horrid system because average no longer applies to it. You could kill a mob a thousand times and never approach the average on its common drops. That is why people complain about RNG.

[Ibi]

Also, aren't these western players you are talking about running the same 2 dungeons for months now?

Are you really trying to suggest that 3 months is the same as several years?

Do you know why drop % worked years ago? Because they werent RNG dependant, they were random drops. Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

...what?

How do you think random numbers and averages work? And what do you think the R in RNG stands for?

[Aeyis]

Are you really trying to suggest that 3 months is the same as several years?

2 Dungeons for 3 months. Compared to several dozen dungeon or duties for several years. I think the comparison is a decent one.

...what?

How do you think think random numbers and averages work? And what do you think the R in RNG stands for?

You still don't understand it? RNG and random are words used to describe different things. Random (the old way used to calculated mmos) decided drops based on an average number specific for that item. If an item had a 50% drop chance then it would on average drop once every 2 kills. The SD on items would be very small, getting higher as the items drop chance decreases, but still only growing to be somewhat small.

RNG, or random number generator doesnt calculate based on an average. It simply assigns a random item. There's still a [range] safeguard in place, but it has a huge range to it. Unlike its predecessor [random] it's usually not possible to get close to average results.
With RNG an item that has a 50% drop rate might give one player 20 out of 100 kills, and another player 80 out of 100 kills.


But I'm not surprised. Even several years ago many people seem to be clueless about the fact that RNG is a different beast then random/average. Apparently these days people use RNG to describe anything random related, huh.


Random Number Generator

Hint: the reason it's a different thing is because of the second and third words. Because it generates numbers rather then assigning them from a preset list..

[Ibi]

RNG and random are words used to describe different things. Random (the old way used to calculated mmos) decided drops based on an average number specific for that item.

The SD on items would be very small, getting higher as the items drop chance decreases, but still only growing to be somewhat small.

Let me see if I have this correct.

You're suggesting that loot in FFXI was determined SE setting an average drop rate (in the case of Leaping/Bounding Boots, likely 6.5% or 7%) and rather than a completely random number being generated (which, as the bolding indicates, would be RNG), the loot system calculator generated a number (presumably based around the current actual drop rate over some range) in such a way as to ensure that the actual drop rate doesn't stray too far from the average over large samples?

Edit: Okay, I see how you're saying you think it works.

Leaping Lizzy has 100 (or 1,000) possible straws you can draw when you kill her. 7 (or 70) are red straws, and if you pull a red straw, you get the boots. 93 (or 930) are plain straws, and if you pull a plain straw, you don't get the boots. Every time a straw is pulled, it stays removed from the pool until all the straws are pulled. Once all 100 (or 1000) have been pulled, they all go back in and it starts again.

Do you have any evidence at all that FFXI worked this way, or is this speculation on your part?

More to the point, did it work this way for a particular person (people going 0/200+ on things like Thief Knife would suggest no), a particular zone (11 straight months of not seeing particular drops from certain Dynamis zones would suggest no) or for a particular mob?

Was the pool of straws 100? 1,000? 10,000? 1,000,000?

[Nadirah]

Last I checked I was a western player.
Also, aren't these western players you are talking about running the same 2 dungeons for months now?




Do you know why drop % worked years ago? Because they werent RNG dependant, they were random drops. Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

What we have these days is a horrid system because average no longer applies to it. You could kill a mob a thousand times and nver approach the average on its common drops. That is why people complain about RNG.

2 months isn't 7 years.

And you have absolutely no idea what RNG is do you? Because "random drop" IS RNG.

RANDOM NUMBER GENERATOR.


For example of RNG:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm

Your monster treasure is determined by die rolls. Roll the dice. If the number is a-b, they get this, c-d, they get this, etc.

Same rule is applied to other stuff as well. Your generator for that "random" drop is similar to "roll 100, if you get a 1-7, the item drops, if not, it doesn't."

And no, that doesn't mean you'll get it in X number of kills. You can, in theory, NEVER SEE IT, EVER.

And you think that's a great system. Riiiiight.

Edit: Still waiting for Aeyis to give us proof that it works the way they say it does.

It's a set percentage per kill. That's it. You roll a certain number on that die, you get the item. There is no "averages", there is no "you'll eventually get it because the system is set up that way", but there *is* "it could never ever drop for you, ever, in 10 years."

[Aeyis]

And you think that's a great system. Riiiiight.

Do you even read?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm

I'm not talking DnD ruleset tho. Sorry, did that kill your argument? Obviously anything based on dice isnt going to have much of average in it.

Now lets talk something actually related. Have you ever played an older mmo where the droprates were based on average? Because the ''random'' there wasnt that random anymore over time.


I already said it in my above post, but I'll say it again, just for you:

Random =/RNG. Random can also be used to describe RNG, but RNG cannot be used to describe all forms of random. Why?
Well its basic logic really.

Meta: Random.
Sub: RNG.

RNG is a very specific form of random. ''Old random'' was just assigning a possible yield from a preset list, and then refreshing that list after all values had been exhausting. As a result average would essentially always be met.
''RNG'' randomly generates a number inside a [range] of values. Average? Well if a drop chance is ''50%'' that probably means half the values in the [range] are equal to a yield, and the other half arent.
Just in case it doesnt get ''too ridiculous'' there's always a safeguard such as ''cant get this many-out-of-that-many yields/no yields''.
As we can all see from playing the game the safeguard(s) dont guard against extremes very well at all.


Because if you aim to truly make something [random] something like getting a 1% drop 5 kills in a row, is quite possible.
Which is why RNG (which means Random Number Generator) really sucks. Especially if you dont place the safeguards where players might actually hit average in their lifetime.

[LineageRazor]

Random back then actually followed a set average, so you would approach the average (and actual drop chance) if you killed said mob often enough.

I played (and am, in fact, still playing) FFXI almost since NA release, and I've never heard of this. As far as anyone ever knew, FFXI was pure RNG. Odds are 7% of getting the boots, and you don't get them this time. What are the odds next time? 7%, plain and simple. FFXI was a merciless game in many ways, pure RNG being just one of them.

If you have documented evidence (preferably explicit info from the FFXI developers rather than player speculation; player speculation was what lead to superstitious hogwash like crafting directions) that this is how they implemented random drops in that game, I'd be very interested to see it!