More Horizontal Progression please

[Reinha]

They would only be horizontal if said boss took the same amount of damage regardless of type. So a well-balanced proc would be instead of a fireball, it would be a boulder that did physical damage.

Gear A: Adds an extra attack that deals X damage.
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times dealing damage.
Gear C: Occasionally launches a saw that deals damage.

It shouldn't matter what type, unless all the types are the same. If they are different then its unbalanced procs.

You basically just described the purpose of crit, det and skill/spell speed. Different ways to deal damage and heal but all are viable if the stat budget is the same. That means the game already has horizontal progression in cases where an item has random secondary stats (like leveling accessories) or sidegrades of the same item level. Are you asking for more sidegrades? Or do you want to be able to meld all gear to have a choice between stats?

[Ibi]

EQ was purely vertical (aside from clickies and such) but the content was still relevant for MULTIPLE EXPANSIONS.

50 = ARR group 50 gear
60 = HW group 60 gear
70 = CT1
80 = CT2
90 = CT3
100 = Alex(N)
110 = Coil 1
120 = Coil 2
130 = Coil 3
140 = Alex(S) 1

Add on a couple more expansions depending on the era. Point is even with a new EXPANSION AND LEVEL CAP. The previous expansion's raids still provided superior gear to the new expansion's group gear. What did this mean?

It meant the casual/low tier raiders could raid content they were unable to beat at 50 at level 60 bringing the new spells/stats that come along with that and STILL GAIN MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION.

Okay, this is much more interesting than arguing arbitrary definitions.

You said EQ was vertical progression still. Based on your chart above, does that mean that for someone who'd been raiding the 130 content before the expansion, some of the expansion content (the 60 and 100 content listed above) would be irrelevant for them even when the expansion first launched?

[Ibi]

If one item is 30% or better in a situation there is no need to use it over other items because there is such a huge difference in power. Sorry you disagree, but its the truth.

At no point did I disagree with this. It's an obvious and factual statement.

I disagreed with that being the definition of vertical progression, because you have based your definition around a completely arbitrary cut off (>30% in any single situation in the entire game).

Thank you for arguing with me for no point or reason. I was trying to help you understand but it seems you just want to argue, for the sake of arguing.

I'm debating your definition because there's no point going "SE, we might want more horizontal progression" if we can't even agree on what horizontal progression is.

The vast majority of the people in this discussion seem to have much the same concept of horizontal progression, and were discussing the relative pros and cons of it, until you came into the discussion and went "No, you're all wrong, here's what I say horizontal progression is."

[karateorangutang]

Doesn't even need to be horizontal... They just need to stop leapfrogging raid content with group content EVERY SINGLE DAMN RAID PATCH.

EQ was purely vertical (aside from clickies and such) but the content was still relevant for MULTIPLE EXPANSIONS.


To translate EQ into XIV's terms...

50 = ARR group 50 gear
60 = HW group 60 gear
70 = CT1
80 = CT2
90 = CT3
100 = Alex(N)
110 = Coil 1
120 = Coil 2
130 = Coil 3
140 = Alex(S) 1


Add on a couple more expansions depending on the era. Point is even with a new EXPANSION AND LEVEL CAP. The previous expansion's raids still provided superior gear to the new expansion's group gear. What did this mean?

It meant the casual/low tier raiders could raid content they were unable to beat at 50 at level 60 bringing the new spells/stats that come along with that and STILL GAIN MEANINGFUL PROGRESSION.

EQ's raid content was kept relevant for years through this and it's group content was kept relevant through the aug/aa system.

Modern MMOs they could literally delete Coil 1-3 and CT 1-3 tomorrow and no one would notice unless they wanted vanity items. There is 0 benefit for any player even the newest fresh 50 to step foot in either of these zone series because the content is designed to make them irrelivant as soon as something new is released.



Just because the top 1% have vertical progression (due to being on the bleeding edge and being able ot get the best of everything) doesn't mean the game has to be totally designed around the idea that no character wear anything but the best currently available.

The people new to raiding should be able to go to the Coil RAID, learn the fights, beat the fights, gain gear upgrades over what a faceroll GROUP dungeon provides. Keeping content relevant isn't a bad thing.

As the content is currently designed if you aren't clearing at least Alex savage 1/2 by now you may as well not even bother trying to start raiding. By the time you get a group together and start raiding they will drop group content that gives the same gear.

This is a cool model. I've never played any of the EQ games so I was unaware of their progression. The only thing that scares me is that it would breed a big separation of endgame raiders and more casual players, which I think SE is trying to avoid.

[Zarzak]

Okay, this is much more interesting than arguing arbitrary definitions.

You said EQ was vertical progression still. Based on your chart above, does that mean that for someone who'd been raiding the 130 content before the expansion, some of the expansion content (the 60 and 100 content listed above) would be irrelevant for them even when the expansion first launched?

As one of those people for years this is basically what expansions meant to us..

Most of the group gear was as you assume worthless to us. That does not mean that the content itself wasn't relevant to us. We spent a HUGE amount of time in the group content of a new expansion..

-Augs (materia) were almost exclusively group content. We would quickly learn the best camps for the new named that dropped the augs we wanted and seek those camps out. Any gear that dropped we would just /shout it to anyone in the zone (also guild chat for alts/friends/family) or in the case of rarer items to the general chat channel as well.

-clickies. Some items would have unique clickable spells (usually buffs) and you would farm the items just for the clicky. Keep it in your bag. (one I used for YEARS, as in it was from 7+ expansions ago, was a clicky that provided the equivalent of a weakened protect for when you didn't have a "white mage" in the group)

-AA (alternate advancement points) Each expansion EQ would add to this system (originally introduced in the 4th expansion). It was a HUGE list abilities (most passive but each expansion we would usually gain a couple new abilities). There were "general" aa (everyone got them.. run speed, food duration, passive resistances to charm, stun, etc), archetype aa (healers got passive heal bonuses, faster rez cast, stronger esuna, etc), and class aa (lower benediction cooldown for a passive example or a group benediction on a 10 minute cooldown as a active example)


So was the GEAR relevant to us? No not really. Even the 1st tier or raid gear usually only equaled the previous expansion's top tier (so the Coil 3 gear would be = to the ALex(S) 1 gear. Mostly to fill in slots you didn't manage to get or for new apps) but there was still PLENTY of reason to spend far more time there than we do on any content XIV has released.

This is a cool model. I've never played any of the EQ games so I was unaware of their progression. The only thing that scares me is that it would breed a big separation of endgame raiders and more casual players, which I think SE is trying to avoid.

Eh depends how you mean. In raid content surely. Though my point would be why does it matter if the top raiders are in ilvl 150 gear and you are still in ilvl 90 gear if you are progressing and the gear is sufficient to do anything besides the raids past the ones immediately ahead of you.

That being said it was common practice among the top guilds (usually the #1 on each server) to host open raids. We would get our content on farm quickly and be down to like 2 raid nights a week. So we would take a random day (my guild did saturday) and host an open raid for the server. We would usually play alts (or play mains to help but "roll" for our alts) and take anyone who wanted to come through the easier raids of the current expansion.

Last expansion I participated in these in there were 4 tiers of raids (standard in EQ expansion) and we would run every raid in the 1st 2 + 1 of the tier 3 raids. The only thing that was reserved for the guild (well 1st dibs if anyone wanted) was the spell stones (EQ spells later on had 3 ranks.. merchant bought, group dropped, raid dropped) we had 1st dibs on the spells if we needed them as they directly helped our raids. Any loot was open roll for anyone present and you could only win 1 piece of loot a week.


To be clear we could play mains or alts because as a guild we no longer cleared anything but the top tier when we started open raids (usually a couple months into the expansion). Most of us played alts for the fun of it. We could still carry people pretty well. Few would play mains if we wiped due to too many inexperienced/undergeared players. We never let an event go unkilled during the open raids though.

Also as I mentioned above group content is MUCH more relevant to the "hugely segregated raiders of EQ" than it is to raiders in FFXIV who are only 1 step above the groupers... I personally haven't stepped foot in group content with those "more casual players" in what 2 months? Because it provides 0 benefit to me.

[Kiara]

I will take farming sky or seas over alexander savage any day of the week.

It is not being gullable it is actually enjoying content that is not designed to be throw away or bash your head against the wall for 500hrs to clear it.

I do not understand how anyone can enjoy raiding (if you can even call it that) in XIV. Oh BOY I can't wait to get on to spend 4hrs tonight getting 1/2 more of a phase into the 9 phase boss.... WoW such fun........................

Oh and did I mention after the 300-500 hrs spent... your gear is worthless in probably 2-4 months after you get it. So enjoy wasting all your time on "Vanity gear" in the end. But do not worry in the next even patch you can bash your head against the wall all over for new gear... that is the same Garbage with a few more stats on it.

SUCH FUN!

Who are the gullible ones... The people who are trying to get gear that will permanently better your character. OR People who are getting gear that is vendored in 3 months while spending = amounts of time getting said gear.

+100. Well said Xatsh.

I, too, would much rather farm Sky or Sea than do Alexander Savage any day of the week. Easily.

I'd take the Multi-Objective, Multiple Side Paths / Side Bosses and layout of Dynamis-Xarcabard than any raid in FF XIV.

It's far more meaningful and encouraging if you know you're raiding week-in and week-out (like we are now anyways, like we did for months and months in Coil), if those drops will be useful for more than 2 - 4 months after you acquire them.

It's absolutely GARBAGE that players who dropped Millions of Gil and countless hours for the Relic in XIV has a weapon whose usefulness was about ~2 months every few patches, before being outdated.

It feels like crap that you finally get the BiS Coil Gear to drop, only to have it invalidated the next major patch (w/ Item Level increase).

"Congrats" on wasting months and months, to have gear that was best for... 2 - 4 months.

You're just on a hamster wheel, playing a Skinner box that Yoshi P is lazily copying from World of WarCraft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c


I really hope we change the core end game in the near future for the betterment of Final Fantasy XIV.

[Evtrai]

Thats really hardcore, prolly the reason why they put that message before you play ff11 each time you start up.

Lol not really, it depends on each individual person when they let something become an addiction, when I played FFXI I only played on weekends because that's the only time my parents allowed me to play games, but yeah, just because I enjoy drinking a beer on a ocasion doesn't mean I'm gonna turn into a raging alcoholic.

[Nadirah]

I really hope we change the core end game in the near future for the betterment of Final Fantasy XIV.

End game is fine.

You want to drastically change how the game works, how about finding a game that plays the way you want to and go play that instead?

You know what happened the last time they drastically changed how a game worked?

NGE.

No thanks.

[midnitdragoon]

End game is fine.

You want to drastically change how the game works, how about finding a game that plays the way you want to and go play that instead?

You know what happened the last time they drastically changed how a game worked?

NGE.

No thanks.

I still have burn marks from that.... But with all due respect I think the company said they did that with the full intention of bringing a better player experience.

Also didn't some guy die over that?

[Nadirah]

I still have burn marks from that.... But with all due respect I think the company said they did that with the full intention of bringing a better player experience.

Also didn't some guy die over that?

No idea. In that case it was more a "Luxas barked, we jumped" thing due to licensing, but point stands. Drastically changed gameplay model and *destroyed* the game.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.