More Horizontal Progression please

[Ibi]

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing.

If I'm a DPS, why do I care about healing? My role is to deal DPS so, again, option 3 is superior in all situations. Your definition of vertical.

Or, offer 4.

12% chance on hit to deal 1200 damage.

Now you have no healing, for more damage then the healing and damage one.

Okay, now option 4 is superior for a DPS in every fight. Still your definition of vertical.

You've still not answered the question I actually answered: How big does the advantage a piece of gear has, even if it's only on a single fight, for progression to be considered vertical rather than horizontal?

I'll try and make my point clearer.

Gear A: Attack +50
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times
Gear C: Occasionally launches giant fireballs at the enemy

On paper, these all look like different ways to do damage. No matter which one you choose, you're getting some sort of bonus damage, and though it may vary how much.

Based on this information alone, this matches your definition of horizontal progression, correct?

Let's say on boss fights 1 through 4, they all perform pretty almost identically.

Still horizontal progression, correct?

Now boss fight 5 is introduced, and he's slightly weak to fire damage. Suddenly gear C is about 5% on this fight.

Am I still horizontal progression? Or am I vertical now?

What if boss fight 6 is introduced, and if it's attacked rapidly in succession, it takes more damage from each hit. It's also weak to fire. Gear B is a massive 25% better on this fight, but because of the fire weakness, gear C is 15% better.

Horizontal or vertical?

Then bosses 7 through 20 are introduced, and they're all about even again.

Horizontal or vertical?

Boss 21 is immune to fire.

Horizontal or vertical?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

If I'm a DPS, why do I care about healing? My role is to deal DPS so, again, option 3 is superior in all situations. Your definition of vertical.



Okay, now option 4 is superior for a DPS in every fight. Still your definition of vertical.

You've still not answered the question I actually answered: How big does the advantage a piece of gear has, even if it's only on a single fight, for progression to be considered vertical rather than horizontal?

I'll try and make my point clearer.

Gear A: Attack +50.
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times.
Gear C: Occasionally launches giant fireballs at the enemy.

It became vertical the second you gave one specific effect a damage type then declared that damage types matter greatly.

On paper, these all look like different ways to do damage. No matter which one you choose, you're getting some sort of bonus damage, and though it may vary how much.

Based on this information alone, this matches your definition of horizontal progression, correct?

Let's say on boss fights 1 through 4, they all perform pretty almost identically.

Still horizontal progression, correct?

Vertical.

Now boss fight 5 is introduced, and he's slightly weak to fire damage. Suddenly gear C is about 5% on this fight.

Am I still horizontal progression? Or am I vertical now?

Vertical.

What if boss fight 6 is introduced, and if it's attacked rapidly in succession, it takes more damage from each hit. It's also weak to fire. Gear B is a massive 25% better on this fight, but because of the fire weakness, gear C is 15% better.

That is not only unbalanced from a class design standpoint but also from an item standpoint. That is straight up vertical though, there is a huge advantage in one item thus making all other items pointless to that fight.

Horizontal or vertical?

Vertical.

Then bosses 7 through 20 are introduced, and they're all about even again.

Horizontal or vertical?

Boss 21 is immune to fire.

Horizontal or vertical?

Vertical. There is no choice but to use non-fire effects against him.

They would only be horizontal if said boss took the same amount of damage regardless of type. So a well-balanced proc would be instead of a fireball, it would be a boulder that did physical damage.

Gear A: Adds an extra attack that deals X damage.
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times dealing damage.
Gear C: Occasionally launches a saw that deals damage.

It shouldn't matter what type, unless all the types are the same. If they are different then its unbalanced procs.

[Ibi]

They would only be horizontal if said boss took the same amount of damage regardless of type.

So a well-balanced proc would be instead of a fireball, it would be a boulder that did physical damage.

Gear A: Adds an extra attack that deals X damage.
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times dealing damage.
Gear C: Occasionally launches a saw that deals damage.

It shouldn't matter what type, unless all the types are the same. If they are different then its unbalanced procs.

Okay, fine, we'll use your jumping off point instead. The way I see it, there are three possible outcomes here.

Scenario 1: A, B, and C all do effectively equivalent damage on all fights. Maybe slight advantages here and there.

This is not choice. It's an illusion of choice, because while you have the option to use any of them, it also doesn't matter which one you use. Once you've acquired one, there's no reason to go after either of the others unless you're crazy about min-maxing.

Scenario 2: One of the three is the superior choice in all situations.

I think everyone agrees that this would be an example of vertical progression. You have a single best option and, once you have that, you no longer need concern yourself with other options.

Scenario 3: Different options are better for different situations.

Here's where the split is occurring. Most people in this thread would say this is horizontal progression.

You seem to have a further distinction:

Scenario 3a: Specific options are slightly superior in different situations. All options are viable in all situations.

You would call this horizontal progression, as would everyone else.

Scenario 3b: Specific options are marginally superior in different situations. Other options are still viable, but inferior.

You would call this vertical, most everyone else would call this horizontal.

What I'm trying to get you to clarify, and what you're consistently either avoiding or failing to answer, is where you think the line is between 3a and 3b.

What's the difference between a small advantage and a noticeable advantage?

[Reinha]

They would only be horizontal if said boss took the same amount of damage regardless of type. So a well-balanced proc would be instead of a fireball, it would be a boulder that did physical damage.

Gear A: Adds an extra attack that deals X damage.
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times dealing damage.
Gear C: Occasionally launches a saw that deals damage.

It shouldn't matter what type, unless all the types are the same. If they are different then its unbalanced procs.

You basically just described the purpose of crit, det and skill/spell speed. Different ways to deal damage and heal but all are viable if the stat budget is the same. That means the game already has horizontal progression in cases where an item has random secondary stats (like leveling accessories) or sidegrades of the same item level. Are you asking for more sidegrades? Or do you want to be able to meld all gear to have a choice between stats?