More Horizontal Progression please

[Ibi]

Vertical progression means you replace every piece of gear periodically (every other major patch in FFXIV). Horizontal means old gear remains viable in new content, and can be replaced by new gear.

I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:

If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power.

versus

Vertical means there is one best choice.

According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I'm trying to get Nektulos-Tuor to explain his definition of it, since he's only providing very nebulous, sometimes contradictory statements, like:


versus


According to the first quote, one best choice was horizontal, as long as it "wasn't too powerful over another in the same situation". According to the second quote, from the same post, one best choice was vertical.

I was hoping he could quantify where the line for "too powerful" is.

Nektulos-Tuor:

If, on fight 1, item A is +1%, item B is +3%, and item C is +2%, but on fight 2, item A is +7%, item B is +3%, and item C is +4%, I assume you'd say that's horizontal.

If everything else was kept the same, but on fight 1, item A was +40%, and on fight 2, item B was +50%, I assume you'd say that's vertical? (Even though everyone else seems to agree that's still horizontal.)

How about if on fight 1, item A was +10%, and on fight 2, item B was +12%? Or 18% and 14%? At what point does the switch flip that makes it go from horizontal to vertical, in your definitions?

Vertical means, there is only one best choice. Would you take an item that has 100 strength, or an item that has 50 strength? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 strength.

Your fighting an ice monster. Take one that has 50 ice resist, or 100 ice resist? Duh, you would take the one that has 100 ice resistance!.

There is no difference in that. However there is a difference in these.


Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

They are all good choices. Some might be better in some fights. However they are ALL GOOD for every fight! That is true horizontal progression.

For example, picking a DPS class and choosing which one you want is an example this game has of good horizontal choice, you pick the class that suits you, there is no one class that is better for certain fights they are just different.

[Ibi]

However there is a difference in these.

Say an item has instead...

"12% chance on hit to ward (prevent damage) to your health for 1000 for 10 seconds."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 1300."

Vs

"12% chance on hit to heal yourself for 750 and deal 750 damage."

Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Option 3 is clearly the superior choice for a DPS in every situation, since it's the only one that allows you to increase your damage dealt (which is the function of DPS). By your definition, this is vertical progression.

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

Or, offer 4.

12% chance on hit to deal 1200 damage.

vs

12% chance on hit to deal 1600 damage, but takes 650 life every proc.

Now you have no healing, for more damage then the healing and damage one.

Now you have another one that does even MORE damage. At the cost of life.

[SendohJin]

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing. Which may save you in certain fights more. You have to give up that damage for more healing, or give up healing for more damage. Its your choice, but both are viable in every fight.

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

Since you don't read. I was awnsering someone else's question that wasn't about FFXIV but Horizontal Progression in general. Don't butt into a conversation if you don't understand it.

Also, are you ever going to awnser my question? Or avoid it? Which game has this magical horizontal progression you speak of?

Please awnser with FFXI.

[Jynx]

it's not your choice if they tune fights to have heal/DPS checks.

Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.

Yes, for example what if they made a fight where you still had to kill a monster but you had to be tanky enough to survive it until you reach 90% of its life, an opposite-rage mechanic. You have to survive it long enough to damage it enough so it weakens. However you also need damage to get it to that HP. However you also need to survive the onslaught!

Indeed, you get it! =)

You sir, are smart. I commend you 1000x~!

Indeed! The way "TRUE" horizontal progression works is every piece of gear, no matter what is viable to use in every single fight in the game.

Snip.

Please take your strawman's someplace else. We are discussing about horizontal progression in games in general, not very very very specific instances of some fights.

[karateorangutang]

Yet if everyone had gear choice like above there would be situations where one item is better in a situation yet all are viable.

So by this logic you would need to acquire all three pieces of gear to be viable in three different contents. Wouldn't that breed an even more toxic environment? Especially if acquiring those pieces took a substantial amount of time?

Horizontal progression the way it's being presented here would make it even more difficult to play multiple jobs for the average player. Vertical progression is more attainable by those with a limited time table because it puts people on a more level footing with gear. This allows things like timing and skill in certain areas to shine through.

I really think this game ( casual style meta) benefits more than suffers from the vertical progression it has.

[Ibi]

Yes, but Option 2 offers more healing.

If I'm a DPS, why do I care about healing? My role is to deal DPS so, again, option 3 is superior in all situations. Your definition of vertical.

Or, offer 4.

12% chance on hit to deal 1200 damage.

Now you have no healing, for more damage then the healing and damage one.

Okay, now option 4 is superior for a DPS in every fight. Still your definition of vertical.

You've still not answered the question I actually answered: How big does the advantage a piece of gear has, even if it's only on a single fight, for progression to be considered vertical rather than horizontal?

I'll try and make my point clearer.

Gear A: Attack +50
Gear B: Sometimes attacks three times
Gear C: Occasionally launches giant fireballs at the enemy

On paper, these all look like different ways to do damage. No matter which one you choose, you're getting some sort of bonus damage, and though it may vary how much.

Based on this information alone, this matches your definition of horizontal progression, correct?

Let's say on boss fights 1 through 4, they all perform pretty almost identically.

Still horizontal progression, correct?

Now boss fight 5 is introduced, and he's slightly weak to fire damage. Suddenly gear C is about 5% on this fight.

Am I still horizontal progression? Or am I vertical now?

What if boss fight 6 is introduced, and if it's attacked rapidly in succession, it takes more damage from each hit. It's also weak to fire. Gear B is a massive 25% better on this fight, but because of the fire weakness, gear C is 15% better.

Horizontal or vertical?

Then bosses 7 through 20 are introduced, and they're all about even again.

Horizontal or vertical?

Boss 21 is immune to fire.

Horizontal or vertical?