More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is when an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

No, that is not "Horizontal" progression, that is actually vertical progression.

That is like critical mitigation. Don't have enough? Can't beat the boss.
That is like accuracy. Don't have enough? Can't hit or beat the boss.

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

Your idea of this is called "Homogenizing Stats." its a false choice. In a system like that, there is no horizontal progression because its not, its actually vertical.

In your system you have 2 pieces of armor.

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

It would be like picking between ilvl100 and ilvl200 gear. Why would you fight a boss with ilvl100 gear when ilvl200 gear is clearly better?

[Velhart]

snip

Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

In which game?

What your saying is basicly the same as this:

All DPS Classes do 1000 DPS.
Except Blackmage, who does 3000 DPS.

Now everyone must roll Black Mage for DPS, there is no choice.

That is not Horizontal Progression, and your friend's explanation is silly. It sounds like they don't play many games.

[Velhart]

snip

Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

[SendohJin]

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

[Ibi]

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?

If the item improves your character by 10%, and one improves it by 11-13% in certain situations its still a 11-12% update to that encounter. The procs in EQ for example were very powerful but there was enough choice that one wasn't "too" powerful over another in the same situation, but they all gave your character a great deal of power. It was just choice.

Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

I see you ignored my question asking which game was this.

if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

Actually, that is vertical. Vertical means there is one best choice. Its a straight upgrade to a fight and an encounter. There is only one real choice if your fighting an ice creature you need ice armor. If your wearing fire armor you have no ice resist so you get melted. There is no other choice for you. That is bad. That is homogenizing and exactly what vertical progression does, there is no difference.

In a Horizontal System: There is no "Ice Resist" or "Fire Resist" or "Accuracy" or "Critical Mitigation".

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

Instead of "Resists and such" there are procs and effects. Each effect is "good" however there is no best effect. You choose the effect based on your own playstyle.

[SendohJin]

Instead of Ice Resist there is "Magic Resistance.". Higher "Magic Resistance" helps against both things. However, one piece has a little more "Magic Resistance" then the other. The one that has less armor has more DPS. However, there are many variants. However, you can still do the boss in any piece of armor. That is play-style choice.

you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

you're just wrong. a little more magic resistance in a magic damage heavy fight means the piece with magic resistance piece is much more important.

again, you're talking about two different things and you are wrong to combine them into one.

That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

[SendohJin]

That depends. What if the other piece has a ward proc on it that makes up for having less magic resistance?

I can now tell you've never played a real horizontal progression game.

so it has a ward to make up for less magic resistance and has more DPS? why would anyone use the piece that has lower DPS and just magic resistance?

there's no "real" horizontal progression game, there are many different ways to do horizontal progression. you're stuck on horizontal means absolutely no BiS which is not true.