More Horizontal Progression please

[StouterTaru]

Even if SE bent to your whims, the bean-counter forum would still make sure everyone had to have one optimum set of gear or get put on the "Do Not Play" list.

So 2% of the party finder groups would be dicks about BiS gear? That's pretty much where we are now.

It won't exist in DF, it won't exist in FCs/LSs, and most "elitists" run with a static.

[Magis]

Yeah, no one except the best of the best cares what you wear barring it meet the minimum. I don't care if you got Eso, Alex Savage, or Alex Normal as long as it isn't causing us to wipe. The BIS wouldn't work either because if you truly wanted BIS, you'd have to have a plethora of armors, vs finding a good negative in some and positive in others to make a more "omnicontent" (if we steal crafter's role) build.

[Nadirah]

Yeah, no one except the best of the best cares what you wear barring it meet the minimum. I don't care if you got Eso, Alex Savage, or Alex Normal as long as it isn't causing us to wipe. The BIS wouldn't work either because if you truly wanted BIS, you'd have to have a plethora of armors, vs finding a good negative in some and positive in others to make a more "omnicontent" (if we steal crafter's role) build.

Trust me, the first time there's a wipe to something, the person that was supposed to do something but didn't will have their gear picked apart immediately regardless of if its the problem or not.

[Ibi]

That isn't Horizontal Progression. That is forced Vertical Progression. There is no other choice if one choice is 100% better.

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is when an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

[SDaemon]

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

[Welsper59]

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

Horizontal only truly works when the system realistically allows it. XI, for example, had appropriate horizontal progression, though in many cases it really was either a one go-to or macro'ing 2 different pieces for everything. It had in-combat gear switching, which is impossible here with the current system... that's a HUGE reason why horizontal gearing works. They can be used at any given moment whenever you see fit. If such a thing existed in XIV, the potential would be far more appropriate.

By example of where we are now, people will NOT bother with something that slightly gives you better potential output if it means lowering your ACC and risking misses throughout an entire fight if they can't switch their gear mid-fight. This means that it's a pointless addition to add in substitute pieces. In order for a need to change things to do that, there has to be substantial reason to allow it, meaning different stats will have to function differently than they do now. If you think the gear bloat is bad now, horizontal progression is significantly worse. For non casters, building TP meant adding in equips with Accuracy+, Dual Wield+, Double Attack+, etc, depending on what job and the other stats involved. To be honest, there is a form of horizontal progression already in XIV, but it's not based on BiS... it's based on getting there. Think progression gear when it came to Coils, people having to buy crafted combat gear to meld them with materia where it may be needed (ACC, VIT, etc). A situational equip, exactly as horizontal progression works. The process as a result, is not much different than the horizontal progression you refer to. It just falls short once you hit BiS, which is essentially what happens even in horizontal progression. Unless it goes to the extreme and requires dozens/hundreds of equips for a single class/job to perform in a BiS manner for every little task possible.

Note: I forgot about the destructive feature that is "ilvl". Wow did that concept destroy horizontal progression and promote a "must have X" mentality.

[Belhi]

Horizontal gear progression as I understand it as described by this thread involves carrying around a lot of gear set on you. That sounds really unappealing to me.

[Nadirah]

I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

And survivability vs throughput only exists for tanks. And survivability is only considered when you're at or below min gear.

[Nadirah]

As a side note, item level has always existed even in the first games.

All item level is, is a number relating to how many "points" is available for stat allocation.

Item level 170 gear has less overall itemization points than i200. And i115 has more than i110. Etc.

Until recently, this number was deliberately hidden from players, but then the wow add-on GearScore came about. This add-on gave items a value based on its itemization. X stat was worth A, Y was worth B, etc.

It led to arbitrary discrimination based on equipment, and rather than relying on an add-on, Blizzard just started displaying the items' ilevel.

Content has a level of gear its designed around, designers have an expectation for your equipment before you can reasonably expect to clear. Also not new.

[Dalvy]

Great way to kill the growth of the game. Large majority of MMOs have an upgrade system to keep players coming back. FF11 may have had you coming back to the same dungeon, but it's not a popular method as a whole. Look at other games and come back here to say vertical progression is a great way to sustain a few million players long term.