More Horizontal Progression please

[Ibi]

That isn't Horizontal Progression. That is forced Vertical Progression. There is no other choice if one choice is 100% better.

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is when an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

[SDaemon]

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

[Waliel]

I've argued this with Nektulos again and again and again.

It's bad for your sanity.

[Welsper59]

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

Horizontal only truly works when the system realistically allows it. XI, for example, had appropriate horizontal progression, though in many cases it really was either a one go-to or macro'ing 2 different pieces for everything. It had in-combat gear switching, which is impossible here with the current system... that's a HUGE reason why horizontal gearing works. They can be used at any given moment whenever you see fit. If such a thing existed in XIV, the potential would be far more appropriate.

By example of where we are now, people will NOT bother with something that slightly gives you better potential output if it means lowering your ACC and risking misses throughout an entire fight if they can't switch their gear mid-fight. This means that it's a pointless addition to add in substitute pieces. In order for a need to change things to do that, there has to be substantial reason to allow it, meaning different stats will have to function differently than they do now. If you think the gear bloat is bad now, horizontal progression is significantly worse. For non casters, building TP meant adding in equips with Accuracy+, Dual Wield+, Double Attack+, etc, depending on what job and the other stats involved. To be honest, there is a form of horizontal progression already in XIV, but it's not based on BiS... it's based on getting there. Think progression gear when it came to Coils, people having to buy crafted combat gear to meld them with materia where it may be needed (ACC, VIT, etc). A situational equip, exactly as horizontal progression works. The process as a result, is not much different than the horizontal progression you refer to. It just falls short once you hit BiS, which is essentially what happens even in horizontal progression. Unless it goes to the extreme and requires dozens/hundreds of equips for a single class/job to perform in a BiS manner for every little task possible.

Note: I forgot about the destructive feature that is "ilvl". Wow did that concept destroy horizontal progression and promote a "must have X" mentality.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Vertical progression is when you can replace one item with another, in all situations. Horizontal progression is when an item can replace your existing item in some cases, but not other cases (like LineageRazor described).

Even in horizontal progression, there's still going to be a superior option in any given situation, unless the trade off is something like survivability vs. throughput (which is one of the very few choices that actually does already exist in FFXIV).

Unless you have some other definition of horizontal progression.

No, that is not "Horizontal" progression, that is actually vertical progression.

That is like critical mitigation. Don't have enough? Can't beat the boss.
That is like accuracy. Don't have enough? Can't hit or beat the boss.

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

Your idea of this is called "Homogenizing Stats." its a false choice. In a system like that, there is no horizontal progression because its not, its actually vertical.

In your system you have 2 pieces of armor.

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

It would be like picking between ilvl100 and ilvl200 gear. Why would you fight a boss with ilvl100 gear when ilvl200 gear is clearly better?

[Velhart]

snip

Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Ibi's explanation is exactly what horizontal progression is. Yours makes less sense and don't even know what you are trying to argue.

In which game?

What your saying is basicly the same as this:

All DPS Classes do 1000 DPS.
Except Blackmage, who does 3000 DPS.

Now everyone must roll Black Mage for DPS, there is no choice.

That is not Horizontal Progression, and your friend's explanation is silly. It sounds like they don't play many games.

[Velhart]

snip

Not the way I read it. You might want to double check before continuing your argument.

[SendohJin]

One has Ice Resist, One has Fire resist. Your going to fight a boss which clearly does fire damage. You are homogenized to using the fire resist set. That is Homogenizing and that is not horizontal progression, that is actually vertical because you only have one choice.

if the next fight inline requires the Ice piece, that's horizontal. vertical and horizontal is not directly related to homogenization. you're trying to conflate two different issues. having BiS for a single fight doesn't make something not horizontal.

[Ibi]

Horizontal Progression means you have many ways to use different pieces of gear and strats to do the same thing. Whilst there may be one that is a bit better then others in certain situations they are all VERY good.

Just to clarify, you're saying that under your concept of Horizontal Progression, every alternative is completely viable in all situations, but any particular item may have a slight advantage in certain situations. Is that correct?

Would you be able to quantify at what point that slight advantage becomes too much and now that piece of gear is necessary for that certain scenario? Is that a 1% advantage? 5%? 10%? Once an item goes beyond that margin, is it now vertical progression? And is it vertical progression just for that particular slot, and horizontal progression in other slots if they're still below that margin?