More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Lets say they have the next raid in some kind of frigid northlands. As a result, players need to gather sets of gear that provide protection against ice damage to survive the environment and its denizens. That is what horizontal progression is. Instead of raising the item level, the raid set has some kind of situational stat. There are various reasons why this is useful, such as countering power creep in a game, but the primary reason a lot of people are asking for it is that WoW didn't do so hot after it raised its level cap too many times. In addition to lowering the value of older content, It eventually became impossible to reconcile the pace of leveling required by the various zones in the world with how long it took to reach max level. Eventually, players found themselves outleveling zones merely by questing in them long before they ever finished the quests required to see how the story unfolded in each zone. Now they just let people buy their way to max level because its too broken to fix.

I remember in EQ2 the "Fatal Lifetap" Jewelry dropped. (gives a lifetap proc) and has multiple stats. So its literally good for Mages/Scouts/Tanks and it was good for pretty much everyone. Although it benefited tanks a little more then the others it was still nice. However, there were also procs that warded mages when they casted spells or casted another small nuke.

Horizontal Gear can make it where you need less gear.

Say they revamped Jewelry and made Jewelry like this.

Soul Sucking Necklace
30 Vitality, Strength, Intelligence

Fatal Lifetap:
10% Chance on any hit to deal 584 unaspected damage and heal's caster for 584.
This is good for all melee, all tanks, all mages. Sure, it might be better for tanks overall. However it can still help mages and melee too!


Life Siphoning Earring of Energy
30 Vitality, Wisdom, Intelligence

Engorged
Slowly converts 500 Life into 300 Mana every 4 seconds.
This is good for all mages and casters. Some other classes may benefit more. However all classes can use it!


Bracelet of Stone
30 Vitality, Wisdom, Strength

Stoneskin
Reduces damage taken by 5%. Slows movement speed by 15%.
This is good for all mages and casters and tanks. Some other classes may benefit more. However all classes can use it!

There is no "BEST ITEM" if made well. All items are different and some have weaknesses attached to them. They just change your "Playstyle!"

That is "NOT" Horizontal Progression. You do "NOT" have a choice but to get the new gear. Horizontal Progression is all about choice.

That is actually "Forced" Vertical Progression, because to go to there you need the new ice protection gear. There is no other gear for you then that.

[Nadirah]

That is "NOT" Horizontal Progression. You do "NOT" have a choice but to get the new gear. Horizontal Progression is all about choice.

That is actually "Forced" Vertical Progression, because to go to there you need the new ice protection gear. There is no other gear for you then that.

When you can't switch gear in combat having those miscellaneous items was bullshit anyways because of how the system currently works.

And those lifetap necklaces weren't situational. Either you wore it or you didn't, all the time, every time.

[Hyrist]

Sorry, but this lip servicing towards Horizontal content is just that, lip servicing. It's not tenable for the majority of existing models.

Here's the problem. Vocal players say one thing, but the majority players trend towards another. The mouth does not know what the brain really wants or the body really needs. I'm all for more content options, but Horizontal progression does not keep well. FFXI had a very narrow interest base because of all the flaws that inherently come with horizontal progression. It hat a worse community because 'choice' was an illusion. Ignoring content could often leave you just as behind in the min-max game as Vertical progression, and force you to do the same content for much, much longer just try try to keep up with the inevitable power creep anyways.

So no, people can speak for themselves, but when they try to speak for the majority on this one, they're talking out their hind ends. Sorry, but the raw numbers win this one. This design was set in stone from the start.

[Reinha]

Soul Sucking Necklace
30 Vitality, Strength, Intelligence

Fatal Lifetap:
10% Chance on any hit to deal 584 unaspected damage and heal's caster for 584.
This is good for all melee, all tanks, all mages. Sure, it might be better for tanks overall. However it can still help mages and melee too!


Life Siphoning Earring of Energy
30 Vitality, Wisdom, Intelligence

Engorged
Slowly converts 500 Life into 300 Mana every 4 seconds.
This is good for all mages and casters. Some other classes may benefit more. However all classes can use it!


Bracelet of Stone
30 Vitality, Wisdom, Strength

Stoneskin
Reduces damage taken by 5%. Slows movement speed by 15%.
This is good for all mages and casters and tanks. Some other classes may benefit more. However all classes can use it!


There is no "BEST ITEM" if made well. All items are different and some have weaknesses attached to them. They just change your "Playstyle!"

This is a no brainer.

Fatal Lifetap for dps because it's the only one that comes with extra damage.

Engorged for healers because the other bonuses don't help them heal the group.

Stoneskin for tanks because a damage reduction is usually way more valuable (smooths out damage spikes, reliable, helps with tank busters, works against magic damage and doesn't interfere with healers) than an RNG-dependent heal (only activates after the damage has been taken and can be wasted as overhealing). Tanks are also the role which has to deal with the least movement/dodging, so that's another reason why it's good for tanks.

The only valid playstyle flexibility comes from the choice between Fatal Lifetap (dps, self heals) and Stoneskin (survivability) for tanks, and this option is already in game in the form of strength and vitality accessories. You say that horizontal options just need to be made well so there is no BiS, but without situational stats like elemental resistances people will always figure out the most optimal gear setup for their role. You can be a BLM with PIE gear right now, but everyone knows it performs sub par. Why on earth would a BLM go for the Engorged bonus when it's painfully obvious Fatal Lifetap is the better option?

Don't get me wrong, I would love some special procs and bonuses on gear. But there will always be a Best in Slot item at any point in time, unless they make boss mechanics which require stacking a certain stat. In which case we are in a lot of trouble with our inventory space. "Different but equal" gear is a nice dream to have but in most cases raw maths will prove one better than the other. That's why I prefer vertical progression with some variety in effects, sort of like "the new tome gear is better than the old no doubt but this time we get to have a damage proc instead of leeching". One way to do this is set bonuses, another would be weapon enchants limited by item level.

[Stormrider]

Oh god do people not remember wearing level 24 and level 7 gear at level 75 because institutionally best in slot. Let us not forget the Red Mage gear bloat you could almost have a different set of gear for every spell you cast. Three neck pieces, at least 4 rings, one staff for every element, gear with plus enhancing for every slot gear with plus healing for every slot gear for plus enfeebling for every slot. That doesn't even include gear for fooling around like extra vit and shields when you wanted to fake tank or another set of gear that buffs weaponskills.


You know where there is horizontal progression, level synced areas. If you look through the different sets you get, they generally will have a slightly different secondary stat. Since all pvp is level synced way below people take advantage of this to best in slot for there play style. You can get healers with every piece spell speed or crit. Same stuff with dps classes. Because they force us to play at a lower ilevel and so many gear sets above it allows some mix and matching. Still no gear change though so you don't have to build complete situational sets.

[Hyrist]

Keep in mind that the horizontal progression is also in expending your available jobs to complete the content in and gearing those to the same level as your main - though grindy it is quite involving and adds a different element of gameplay to each new iteration.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

This is a no brainer.

Fatal Lifetap for dps because it's the only one that comes with extra damage.

Engorged for healers because the other bonuses don't help them heal the group.

Stoneskin for tanks because a damage reduction is usually way more valuable (smooths out damage spikes, reliable, helps with tank busters, works against magic damage and doesn't interfere with healers) than an RNG-dependent heal (only activates after the damage has been taken and can be wasted as overhealing). Tanks are also the role which has to deal with the least movement/dodging, so that's another reason why it's good for tanks.

The only valid playstyle flexibility comes from the choice between Fatal Lifetap (dps, self heals) and Stoneskin (survivability) for tanks, and this option is already in game in the form of strength and vitality accessories. You say that horizontal options just need to be made well so there is no BiS, but without situational stats like elemental resistances people will always figure out the most optimal gear setup for their role. You can be a BLM with PIE gear right now, but everyone knows it performs sub par. Why on earth would a BLM go for the Engorged bonus when it's painfully obvious Fatal Lifetap is the better option?

Don't get me wrong, I would love some special procs and bonuses on gear. But there will always be a Best in Slot item at any point in time, unless they make boss mechanics which require stacking a certain stat. In which case we are in a lot of trouble with our inventory space. "Different but equal" gear is a nice dream to have but in most cases raw maths will prove one better than the other. That's why I prefer vertical progression with some variety in effects, sort of like "the new tome gear is better than the old no doubt but this time we get to have a damage proc instead of leeching". One way to do this is set bonuses, another would be weapon enchants limited by item level.

I'm just giving you one example. There could be a necklace with a proc that deals more damage then fatal lifetap but hurts you. One that does between the two and does nothing besides damage. Or other procs.

There are several DPS classes in this game and besides a few I think need looked at, they are all good at DPSing. They are just "DIFFERENT" and have disadvantages and advantages. This SAME logic can also apply to procs and effects on gear.

Your evidence is right in-front of your face. It just needs work to succeed.

I am sure they can crunch numbers and find the best "DPS" class. However, since they are situation based and different there is playstyle choice in it.


Fatal Lifetap:
Deals 590 damage and heals 630 health.

Warding Strike
Deals 340 damage and prevents up to 350 damage.

Deadly Strike:
Deals 720 damage. No penalty

Sacrificing Blow:
Deals 870 damage and drains 350 life.

Draining Strike:
Deals 590 damage and heals 350 mana.

Concussive Blows:
Deals 350 damage to an encounter (grouped enemies.)

Earthshaker:
Deals 310 damage to all enemies around you.

Cleric Strike
Heals 320 for all allies around you.

Bloodthirsty
Increases base damage of all abilities by 10%.
Drains 5% max life whenever you use an ability.

[Akiza]

Horizontal Progreesion would only work if they weren't going to rasie level cap for a while otherwise it'll be a massive waist of time.

[Stanelis]

Is horizontal gearing really just the same gear with slightly different attributes?

Gearing with horizontal progression works really well with a diablo 3 (or FFXI) style of itemization, eg items that alter how your spells work. It wouldn't work very well in FFXIV, where gears only have flat stats increase on them. But well, glamour could be the point.

FFXI had a very narrow interest base

FFXI had like 700 k subscribers back in 2006, which is the same amount that FFXIV had in april 2015 (last time we had numbers).

[Gralna]

I preferred DAoC's method of horizontal progression, they had caps on how much you could boost each stat from gear, it was actually quite easy to cap 2-3 stats, but there was around 20-25 stats you had to balance on your character.

Putting together a template of gear to max out necessary stats took a bit of work, and some people would work really hard to get an "optimal" template built, but in the end no one was ever able to max out every stat they needed for their character.

So in essence, there was no BiS nonsense, or illusion of choice, nearly everyone had their own custom template for how they played. Only one class ever carried around a second set of gear for endgame, and that was to max out the hp of their pet when they summoned it.