More Horizontal Progression please

[Kiara]

Hi All,

While there are pros and cons to both Vertical and Horizontal Progression systems, too many people always think it's "either / or"; there can be a *Hybrid* approach as well that alleviates a lot of the issues that both sides are concerned about.

The issues with the current Vertical Progression model (seen in XIV 2.0 and 3.0) is the constant overwriting of all your gear: Every 5 - 6 months = New Item Level Increase = All your Previous Gear is Worthless (except for glamour).

In addition, you get BORING as hell Stats on the gear: Final Fantasy XIV is the most Boring Itemization I've ever seen in an MMORPG or RPG, period. Every new gear patch, you already know what the Gear Stats will be:

* More + VIT
* More + [Main Stat]

BORING and so mindless.

Guess what your Item Level 900 Gear is going to be? "Surprise!" More +VIT, More + [Main Stat].

For those harping on Horizontal Progression and thinking "you'll be stuck with the same raid for 7 years!" Please think beyond the extreme:

* Yoshi P should consider a Hybrid Progression System, where instead of every single major patch being a pure Item Level increase, they should release New Raids with the *same* Item Level but with *meaningful* Additional Stats and Unique Effects, so we could have a few more Gear Sets without an iLevel increase.

You would still get the *same* number of New Dungeons and New Items as we do now, but it's not being invalidated every major patch. For example:

Instead of Current Style (example):

* Patch 4.0 - iLevel 300
* Patch 4.2 - iLevel 320
* Patch 4.4 - iLevel 340
* Patch 4.6 - iLevel 360

A Hybrid System would get:

* Patch 4.0 - iLevel 300 - Raid A
* Patch 4.2 - iLevel 300 - Raid B, NEW Alternate Gear Sets (Other Stats / Effects)
* Patch 4.4 - iLevel 320 - Raid C
* Patch 4.6 - iLevel 320 - Raid D, NEW Alternate Gear Sets (Other Stats / Effects)


Alternate Gear Set Ideas (quick examples):

Example Tank Sets (All Same Item Level) but with Meaningful Stats (that mattered)

* High Defense / VIT Set
* High Attack & Low Defense Set
* High Block / Parry Set (if Block and Parry were really scaling right)
* +X% Counterattack Set (or pieces that had "+ Counterattack")
* "Enhances Rampart" ("Enhances [XYZ] Ability / Spell" etc.)

There are so many interesting stats and Materia ideas that can be used from previous Final Fantasy games.

* Create End Game Crafted Gear Sets (same iLevel as highest Raid), but it requires a Rare Material Drop from the End Game Raids.

Your older Final Fantasy game did this very well (there were Abjurations that dropped in End Game Raids / Bosses and you used those along with rare Mats to have a Crafter create CURSED GEAR that you could UNCURSE).

It also made End Game Raids more enjoyable, because besides an actual Armor / Weapon dropping you might get a Rare Material (very valuable and meaningful) instead and it made the run still worth it. This connected Adventurers & Crafters in a great way.


They could even potentially have some Rare Materials (or maybe Rare Materia) drop as a New Item from OLDER Boss Chests, so that players would have a reason to go back to previous Raids and try those out.

Ultimately, though, a Hybrid approach would help slow down Item Level / Stat Inflation (something WOW has suffered from (where the numbers got so high / ridiculous they had to crunch / scale them down, almost like a reset)).

It would also help make your Gear / efforts feel like they mattered more: Instead of being reset every 5 - 6 months, your gear from Patch 4.0, Raid A (i300) would still be relevant and useful even during the next patch 4.2, which had Raid B (i300 Alternate Gear Sets).

This would also open up the door for More Interesting Stats and Effects on Gear. There should be *excitement* and interest in wondering what the New Gear in each Patch would be like (not appearance only).

You would wonder if it might have an "Enhance [Weaponskill / Spell]" Effect. Or maybe "Double Attack +X%". Or maybe "Counterattack +X%". Or had + Enmity, or + Evasion, etc.

Current Gear Itemization and End Game Raiding is completely Boring and is the same Treadmill every patch.

Lastly, know that I (and all the people who are asking for these updates) are only hoping that FF XIV improves and succeeds in the long run.

Thanks!

[MilesSaintboroguh]

That's not the point. Firstly, you shouldn't NEED to have multiple characters just to shuffle your inventory. Second, if we did have horizontal styled progression, then what's going to happen for someone who plays multiple jobs and needs several sets of gear for each because of horizontal progression?

[Ibi]

it absolutely doesn't mean the content was bad or was boring.

Agreed, most of it wasn't bad or boring, especially at first. Though I don't think I could have done two years of Dynamis twice a week if I hadn't had the responsibility of pulling to keep me engaged.

The issue is that for something to stay relevant for a long time, it has to remain rewarding for a long time, and the way SE generally did that in FFXI was to have very low drop rates. There also wasn't all that much variability to the events. Dynamis - Xarcabard the first time was exciting and tense and dangerous. Dynamis - Xarcabard the twentieth time was exactly the same, minus all the excitement, tension, and danger, because you know exactly what to expect from every pull.

It was something they got better with over time, certainly. Each Salvage area had multiple different routes you could take, to engage different enemies and try for different rewards. Nyzul Isle was semi-randomly generated, and no two runs went quite the same.

I'm all for horizontal progression in theory, but:

1. The content needs to be repeatable, without being overly repetitive.
2. The content needs to remain rewarding, without the rewards being too infrequent.
3. The rewards need to be compelling but, because this is horizontal progression, not too significant.

The last point is particularly difficult, especially in an environment like FFXIV's where you can only use a single piece of gear in a particular slot for a particular encounter. How do you ensure that the idea that's better for one encounter isn't universally the best, without getting into uninteresting stats like elemental damage/resists?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

That's not the point. Firstly, you shouldn't NEED to have multiple characters just to shuffle your inventory. Second, if we did have horizontal styled progression, then what's going to happen for someone who plays multiple jobs and needs several sets of gear for each because of horizontal progression?

Just because you are multiple classes doesn't mean you need to be good at all of them. Also, I don't seem to have any issues. Its not like I have 30 slots for each set of gear. Less you have "30" classes and for some reason hoard all old gear.

I got rid of all my prelevel 50 gear because its worthless even for glamour. I get rid of all gear that way too.

Plenty of room, manage your inventory better. =)

[StouterTaru]

The other issue is horizontal progression could lead to gear bloat and with the armory system being a total joke, I don't see it working here.

Since you can't swap gear in combat, it wouldn't be that much of an issue. Gear was shared between jobs more like the <50 gear, so the 1-3 pieces per slot you have for your whm would mostly be wearable and useful to all caster classes.

[Sandpark]

The other issue is horizontal progression could lead to gear bloat and with the armory system being a total joke, I don't see it working here.

Vertical progression if far worse on gear bloat than horizontal is. Since not every job levels at the same rate at the same time, the items that do not scale up either get used, get thrown away, or bloat inventory. Look at the job armoury system, many players are afraid of getting even a few more abilities or they may become overwhelmed.

[Urthdigger]

I'd really be wary of this due to my experience with FFXI. So many endgame events... and you were REQUIRED to do ALL of them EVERY WEEK because each one had one or two items you were REQUIRED to have, and even once you had them you couldn't just ditch your LS without being a total dick.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I'd really be wary of this due to my experience with FFXI. So many endgame events... and you were REQUIRED to do ALL of them EVERY WEEK because each one had one or two items you were REQUIRED to have, and even once you had them you couldn't just ditch your LS without being a total dick.

Why not mention a good game?

I mean, Yoshi didn't take ideas from FFXI. There are games with both Horizontal and Vertical Progession. WoW has some of that, EQ2 had a lot of it.

[Sandpark]

That's not the point. Firstly, you shouldn't NEED to have multiple characters just to shuffle your inventory. Second, if we did have horizontal styled progression, then what's going to happen for someone who plays multiple jobs and needs several sets of gear for each because of horizontal progression?

Each job needs certain stats to fill a role and every different job that fills the same role needs the same stat.

Vertical=Items don't scale= Player needs to have couple of sets for one role if has three healer jobs at different levels.
Horizontal=Items scale= Player can have one set of gear for one role even if they have three healer jobs.

Horizontal Example: You get a ring with initial stats usable at lvl 15. The stats increase at 20 and again at 30.
Vertical example: You get a ring with initial stats usable at level 15. Then need to own another at level 20 and another at level 30.

[Pyretta_Blaze]

Even if it was mostly vertical progression but items are acquired in different content. What happened to accessories coming from Primal EX? We need more content, more options even if we had basically the same equipment.