More Horizontal Progression please

[Gilthas]

Horizontal gear progression isn't some perfect system. It brings along its own set of problems, that in my opinion, are much worse than the problems with vertical gear progression.

Lets not forget how in FFXI:
- Real item upgrades were very rarely added to the game. It wasn't uncommon that new patches added nothing for your job.
- To keep players from getting their gear and being done with the game, FFXI had a mix of bad drop rates and lockouts that ensured that you rarely were able to get gear.
- Since we didn't get any real upgrades and items were so rare, we had to rerun the same stuff for years.

[Ibi]

Horizontal gear progression isn't some perfect system. It brings along its own set of problems, that in my opinion, are much worse than the problems with vertical gear progression.

Lets not forget how in FFXI:
- Real item upgrades were very rarely added to the game. It wasn't uncommon that new patches added nothing for your job.
- To keep players from getting their gear and being done with the game, FFXI had a mix of bad drop rates and lockouts that ensured that you rarely were able to get gear.
- Since we didn't get any real upgrades and items were so rare, we had to rerun the same stuff for years.

This post really nails the main issue with horizontal progression.

Many events in FFXI had abysmal drop rates.

I have the data from my old Dynamis LS that shows that we averaged about one piece of armor per hour in Dynamis - Xarcabard, and even when our attendance was trailing off toward the end, we were probably still taking 15-20 people there. There were also multiple 3.5 hour runs where we saw no armor at all.

We ran Salvage a few times a week, and I found an old post from the forums BG showing that we completed our 33rd piece of gear in July of 2008. That's nineteen months after the event was added to the game, so ~1.75 pieces a month.

There were countless NMs, ranging from Jailers to Kirin to KS99s to stuff out in the world, who "rewarded" us from time to time with loot pools completely devoid of any gear.

Horizontal progression necessitates low drop rates because that's the only way (or at least the only way developers seem to have found) to keep the events relevant for such extended periods of time.

[midnitdragoon]

They should do what they did in final fantasy 11. The focus should be on story, missions, and forming parties to reach a goal. The reward may be the opportunity to explore a new land, viewing a cool cutscene that had meaning or impact on the trial you went through! That new weapon/armor or item should be the last thing to expect from a reward.

Although at this point I dunno if that would work. Most ppl would be shocked if all of sudden you don't get anything out of completing every single quest or mission.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

They should do what they did in final fantasy 11. The focus should be on story, missions, and forming parties to reach a goal. The reward may be the opportunity to explore a new land, viewing a cool cutscene that had meaning or impact on the trial you went through! That new weapon/armor or item should be the last thing to expect from a reward.

Although at this point I dunno if that would work. Most ppl would be shocked if all of sudden you don't get anything out of completing every single quest or mission.

People are still surprised when the new story dungeon doesn't drop loot.

[Gilthas]

They should do what they did in final fantasy 11. The focus should be on story, missions, and forming parties to reach a goal. The reward may be the opportunity to explore a new land, viewing a cool cutscene that had meaning or impact on the trial you went through! That new weapon/armor or item should be the last thing to expect from a reward.

Yet most people only completed CoP after the rings were added to the game.

Hell, many people only completed RotZ after the earrings were added!

Too many people can't take off their rose-tinted glasses when they look back at FFXI. Good luck getting any quest that required a group done in FFXI if it didn't have a reward.

[Fendred]

I used to say the same thing, and I still agree with you in principle, OP. After having looked over other expansions to games that were well received, I think the real issue is that MMORPG designers are approaching their expansions with the wrong philosophy. An expansion should never "build over" what is currently there. An expansion should be a soft reworking of the whole game so that the old and new material work as a seamless whole. FFXI's model isn't perfect, as others have pointed out, yet FFXI's model is much better at maintaining a symbiotic relationship between expansion material than WoW's model. WoW broke its old content beyond repair, yet FFXI's content has remained far less damaged by time. While Path of Exile is a slightly different genre, it's recent expansion, PoE:Awakening, follows a design philosophy that is far more benign than the philosophy used to produce Heavensward. I think they could learn a thing or two from how GGG chose to do their expansion.

[Suggestion]

FFXI's model isn't perfect, as others have pointed out, yet FFXI's model is much better at maintaining a symbiotic relationship between expansion material than WoW's model. WoW broke its old content beyond repair, yet FFXI's content has remained far less damaged by time. While Path of Exile is a slightly different genre, it's recent expansion, PoE:Awakening, follows a design philosophy that is far more benign than the philosophy used to produce Heavensward. I think they could learn a thing or two from how GGG chose to do their expansion.

I really don't think FFXIV and WoW can be compared as far as time goes. WoW is 10 years old, FFXIV 2 years i think. Already ive read forums and people complaining that content (including me in some various opinions) that old content is well old already. That we want things fixed from what they are. Then we have people saying no way we don't want to re run old content leave it be. WoW has had plenty of time to break their old content, while FFXIV is already showing signs of "Old content is Bleh". Just my opinion on what i read on the fourms.

[midnitdragoon]

Yet most people only completed CoP after the rings were added to the game.

Hell, many people only completed RotZ after the earrings were added!

Too many people can't take off their rose-tinted glasses when they look back at FFXI. Good luck getting any quest that required a group done in FFXI if it didn't have a reward.

Not everything has to do with nostalgia, the idea might actually work if it was properly executed.

[Gilthas]

Not everything has to do with nostalgia, the idea might actually work if it was properly executed.

Yet it didn't work that way in FFXI.

The objective to do things in FFXI was getting better gear too. How many players only did RotZ until they got sky access? How many only completed RotZ and CoP after rewards were added? How many quests in FFXI were simply ignored if they didn't have a reward? More so if it required a group?

[Lemuria]

Yet it didn't work that way in FFXI.

The objective to do things in FFXI was getting better gear too. How many players only did RotZ until they got sky access? How many only completed RotZ and CoP after rewards were added? How many quests in FFXI were simply ignored if they didn't have a reward? More so if it required a group?

Errm... plenty? The CoP ring reward was still one of the best in the game, even after ToAU and WotG were released.

People who claim FFXI's horizontal progression failed obviously have no true recollection of actually playing the game. There were dozens of examples of great items which stood the test of time, and plenty more which people kept for macros to swap items in and out. Granted, we can't do the latter here in Heavensward, but I think there's still a lot of room to work with some decent optional sidegrades which aren't mind-crushingly dull or simple secondary-stat swaps.