More Horizontal Progression please

[Zarzak]

They didn't "delete" them, they turned them into 5 man instances.

There's a difference.

Unless you're talking about Naxx and Onyxia, and those weren't deleted either. Those got a level bump and rehaul for Wrath.

Side note, SWG was finally shut down because SWTOR was being released, and LA didn't want folks confused as to which one they were playing, so they refused to renew SOE's license.

Does Tier 3 still exist?

To save you time the answer is no. The content was made so irrelevant they literally removed it and it does not matter.

[Nadirah]

Does Tier 3 still exist?

To save you time the answer is no. The content was made so irrelevant they literally removed it and it does not matter.

Yes.

On the Black Market.

The raid itself still exists as well, but as level 80.

"Delete" implies "removed entirely". A rework and level increase is not deletion.

Also, WoW's last official number that I saw was 5.9m. Not 7.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Now, say you got to a quarantined zone. There are zombies everywhere however these zombies in the infested and disease ridden buildings drop some really cool stuff you want, a grind if you will. However! If you do not pay attention to them they swarm you, and if your not with a party of at least 5 people you will usually not make it past the front gate.

Now, not only that. The people in your group and party can also wipe the group by making mistakes. Like pulling too many zombies or making too much noise. If you wipe you start all over as well.

Now, NOT only that. Other groups near you can attract more zombies if they don't play well, which could affect YOUR party too!

Now.. DOES This content, even though your grinding.. does it seem like something /BORING/ and /REPETITIVE/? NO! Your not bored at all! Your trying desperately to stay alive and get your loot!

[Sandpark]

@Nektulos-Tuor
When the world reacts to you, it is hardly ever the exact same experience, playing with others adds even more variables. Even if the most beautiful,elaborate dungeon was created, if the world and it's inhabitants don't react to you, it will eventually become less dynamic or interesting.

Pulling enemies or sneaking by them in FFXI was one activity that rewarded or punished you for bad timing. Would it be wise to apply it to the whole game? That would be the users opinion. I say yes and no depending on circumstances. For instance, requiring this cleverness around fed-ex back and forth quest or fates, I would say no.

But if the situation was trying to infiltrate a highly guarded section of some colossal ruins, then it adds context,dynamics, and immersion to gameplay.

Solid Snake knows what these situations are like.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

@Nektulos-Tuor
When the world reacts to you, it is hardly ever the exact same experience, playing with others adds even more variables. Even if the most beautiful,elaborate dungeon was created, if the world and it's inhabitants don't react to you, it will eventually become less dynamic or interesting.

Pulling enemies or sneaking by them in FFXI was one activity that rewarded or punished you for bad timing. Would it be wise to apply it to the whole game? That would be the users opinion. I say yes and no depending on circumstances. For instance, requiring this cleverness around fed-ex back and forth quest or fates, I would say no.

But if the situation was trying to infiltrate a highly guarded section of some colossal ruins, then it adds context,dynamics, and immersion to gameplay.

Solid Snake knows what these situations are like.

Honestly. If you did it in waves. Starting off Slow and getting bigger. It can be fun.

Outside the city its not very dangerous, until night time. Then you have wild wolves actively hunting your group. The more and more you get away from civilization the more dangerous, scary and creepy the world gets. However the more your rewarded for your effort and exploration.

You can still be casual and enjoy the game. However you will never see the same world as people who branch off the safe paths, nore will you ever be as strong as an adventurer who does..

The Safe Path:
Daily Quests.
Quests and Quested Gear.
Cleared out Dungeons. Dungeons cleared off by the Branched Path, making them a lot safer. Casual Gear from it.
Light Group, Solo Content.
More Static part of the World.
20% of the World.

The Branched off Path:
No Quests or daily quests.
A time consuming Contested Dynamic World.
Cannot be soloed, except by highly skilled individuals who explored and have some of the hardest to get gear.
Everything you do makes the world more dangerous, or safer.
Things you do in the game affect the "Safe Path.", meaning the "Safe" path is no longer safe and a new "Safe" path must be made.
You as an adventurer "make" the safe paths for casual players.
You are MUCH stronger then the average player, for branching off into the dangerous world.
You can make yourself almost ten times stronger then the average player.
80% of the World.


The adventures from the Branched Path go around the world, getting the best loot and making it safer for casual players to go in and get their loot and do the dungeons. They make the safe paths and they make the world safer.

Now, you have a dynamic world where casual and hardcore players are married together.

[Fendred]

@Sandpark

I think the entire issue can be summed up by the developers paying too close attention to WoW and its formula. Even though they never set out with the express objective of creating a "WoW Killer," the core game is set up in the exact same way as other games that did attempt to be "WoW Killers." WoW was only able to throw on loads of polish to its content because of its insane budget. FFXIV is a smaller operation, and should be based on games that are within its operational budget. WoW itself is a kind of evolutionary impasse between a real time tactical RPG and an action game. No action MMORPG has been able to maintain a subscription model despite being well received, so the natural direction FFXIV should take is towards the RTT RPG. There haven't been any major attempts at a more strategic experience, so there is still potential in that direction.

Not to mention, Yoshida's comment about things strongly trending towards F2P can only be said to be true of themepark MMORPGs that take on the form of World of Warcraft.

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

I second this, as I've logged ridiculous hours into Path of Exile (over 600), dying repeatedly, perfecting builds, and cleaving my way through monsters on an ever changing landscape.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Alexander and Alexander Savage are some of the most boring raids and encounters i've ever done. There is little fun in killing the same boss, in the same room over and over for virtually NO reward. Its a mindless grind. There is no fear challenge to it. Its a test you study, and if you get it right and everyone does the test well and you get lucky you win.

However, if you leave the zone your safe and nothing can happen to you or your character. You lose nothing if you leave during the fight. Its disconnected from the world.

Throwing your face and zerging a boss until you win is not fun. Its tedious.

They made it hard by adding nigh impossible DPS checks to the fight to artificially make it seem harder then it actually is. This way this "Very little content." which it is very little will survive until next patch.

Honestly, you know developers pigeonholed themselves in when they literally add a DPS check to every hard fight. Its pretty much an artificial timesink. Almost none of the bosses (1% maybe?) in EQ2 had an enrage timer, but well developed bosses instead.

[Hyrist]

People are getting rather hot under the collar here for no real good reason. Some of these arguments will be met, others won't. I think it's important to realize what's not changing here, which is vertical progression. It's here to stay and we're not going to see it change anytime soon.

As far as horizontal elements to our progression? We're almost guaranteed a degree that over time. But keep in mind human limitations. The process will be slow, and there will be lulls, and you won't get exactly or everything you want. Period. Relax, and don't use straw-man, circular arguments or flat out misinformation to support your opinion. There's no need. Leave your honest desires as they are, and move on.

Some of the obsessive level hatred and support of this game is just unhealthy.

[Hyrist]

Nektulos-Tuor

Could you do me a favor and not declare your opinions as fact.

"Boring" is a matter of opinion. Not something inalienable you can throw around like labeling a color, or a type of fruit. It's ok that you and others find it boring. Others do not, and you should respect that.

By the way, showing off your hours played on a video game is no badge of honor, it may actually be discrediting you at this point.

[Kaurie]

By the way, showing off your hours played on a video game is no badge of honor, it may actually be discrediting you at this point.

mhm it concerns me, because I have over 2000 hours