More Horizontal Progression please

[Nadirah]

I prefer *not* keeping content relevant. I don't like doing old stuff unless it's something I can solo because its outleveled.

Didn't kill Arthas until 2013. Does the fact it wasn't relevant bug me? No.

Was in a realm first kill of Trakanon back when I played EQ2. Did I care the loot was replaced with the next expansion? No.

I don't care that gear isn't relevant later, that it's replaced in a month. I want new things to kill, more often. The sheer thought of having to go camp a level 7 drop at 75 because I need it for some reason is repulsive.

[Sandpark]

Well you and I have different preferences. But on a side note, look at all the work that goes into creating worlds. People complain about not enough content, well if all the content gets outleveled each patch/expansion, that creates a void because developers have to either develop new content twice as fast or go back and retro update old content.

Just look at FFXIV. Instead of focusing on brand new dungeons and zones totally, we are getting normal/hard/extreme/savage modes of the same areas with a different flavor.

Did I kill every NM in FFXI? No. Does that fact that it was relevant bug me? No

It's not just about not caring if gear isn't relevant later, the world isn't relevant either unless you start over. And by then, hopefully there will still be people needing things when you decide to start over.

FFXI never had an issues of fighting new monsters outside experience points best spot camp parties and it was horizontal. They don't have to do extremes by making level 7 gear applicable to an endgame gear set.

The rule of any offline rpg without new game plus or a same level across all zones is once you get high level, you have seen all the world has to offer. And in an mmo which strives to capture players for thousands of hours, breaking and rebuilding the whole world every patch and expansion is not sustainable.

Which is one reason why so many people mmo hop nowadays.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

I prefer *not* keeping content relevant. I don't like doing old stuff unless it's something I can solo because its outleveled.

Didn't kill Arthas until 2013. Does the fact it wasn't relevant bug me? No.

Was in a realm first kill of Trakanon back when I played EQ2. Did I care the loot was replaced with the next expansion? No.

I don't care that gear isn't relevant later, that it's replaced in a month. I want new things to kill, more often. The sheer thought of having to go camp a level 7 drop at 75 because I need it for some reason is repulsive.

Trakanon's loot was relevant for almost 4 years... lol

That shield effect and other effects worked until they finally nerfed it.


Ill Will from Shard of Hate is still relevant now. However its not much of an upgrade, not even 1% health.

How is standing around doing nothing for 2+ hours less tedious than actually actively doing something in hopes of a drop?

Standing around doing nothing is absolutely horrid and boring. However the loot needs to be worth that grind, right now its not.

[Fevelle]

Standing around doing nothing is absolutely horrid and boring. However the loot needs to be worth that grind, right now its not.

People stand around "doing nothing" in FFXIV for MONTHS because they get the top level equips and while some unsub until the next patch, some stay around "doing nothing" at Mor Dhona/Idyllshare. It's no different, and to be honest, it's even worse in FFXIV's case.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

People stand around "doing nothing" in FFXIV for MONTHS because they get the top level equips and while some unsub until the next patch, some stay around "doing nothing" at Mor Dhona/Idyllshare. It's no different, and to be honest, it's even worse in FFXIV's case.

There are 24 slots in EQ2, and the best in slot pieces were all about 2% drop rates. Each Expansion has about 12-15 new dungeons. With a contested dungeon as well which is easier to get loot but you have to fight other players in the zone to kill the bosses.

However, you could also trade contested loot and "Sell Loot Rights" which means you could trade gold for the item and then leader loot the item to the guy who gives you the gold.

Not only that, there are about 10 raids released as well, raids unlike dungeons though have 10-20% chance to drop the best loot and always drops a fabled item per chest.

Trash in raids also drops some of the best loot, but at a lower rate. However they were worth killing and some of the trash was harder to kill then the bosses because of placement and strats.

That game had the opposite problem of FFXIV, the content released faster then anyone could gear up the previous content and items that were good lasted even at high levels next expansion. For example in RoK I could never touch raid content because I never finished Dungeon Content. I barely got my Mythical before the expansion ended.

[Nadirah]

Trakanon's loot was relevant for almost 4 years... lol

That shield effect and other effects worked until they finally nerfed it.


Ill Will from Shard of Hate is still relevant now. However its not much of an upgrade, not even 1% health.



Standing around doing nothing is absolutely horrid and boring. However the loot needs to be worth that grind, right now its not.

Stuff I got off Trak was replaced pretty quickly. Didn't have much lock stuff drop :P

People stand around "doing nothing" in FFXIV for MONTHS because they get the top level equips and while some unsub until the next patch, some stay around "doing nothing" at Mor Dhona/Idyllshare. It's no different, and to be honest, it's even worse in FFXIV's case.

I don't stand around and do nothing.

if I don't have something to do at any given time, I *gasp* log off and go do something else.

Microtransactions have become a common, though despised, thing these days. Had this been a decade ago, you would certainly be tarred and feathered for it. To me, I place these things in the same category as those who complain about something they have full control over not continuing payment for. You do with your money what you want. I'm old enough to know that with how entertainment works these days, there will practically always be something out there for me to throw my money at, and if any given source chooses to go with something I enjoy, my money goes to them for as long as I enjoy it.

Had this been a decade ago, you wouldn't have very much choice in what games were available.

That's another thing folks forget about those older days. There was next to no competition. Everquest was the *only* game of it's type for a while, and XI never got big marketing. Asheron's Call(first one) didn't get much either, and it never really had a big population.

These were niche games. If they had 100k subscribers, they were lucky for the longest time.

Me? If i spend long hours in a game, I want to do it because I'm having fun. Farming rare drops? Not fun. Sitting on my arse waiting on respawns? Not fun. The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore. If I don't have a reason to log in every day, great. Gives me an excuse to go outside.

eidt: below:

So the 999 roulettes and esoterics farming at Neverreap or Fractal doesn't feel like a chore for you? Well...

No, actually, it doesn't. Especially since I haven't done it that many times, and I don't "farm" it.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to have your esoterics capped in one day. I'm generally done by Saturday.

[Fevelle]

The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore.

So the 999 roulettes and esoterics farming at Neverreap or Fractal doesn't feel like a chore for you? Well...

[Nektulos-Tuor]

So the 999 roulettes and esoterics farming at Neverreap or Fractal doesn't feel like a chore for you? Well...

It honestly shouldn't of been that way in the first place. There should be at least 3-4 new dungeons and redos of level 50 ones to 60. I'm not asking too much. That is perfectly reasonable for an expansion.

They have more subscribers and are making far more money then EQ2 is, yet producing 25% of the content.

They should have at least 9 remake dungeons (dungeons based on older zones.) and 4 new dungeons with their own unique loot/armor sets and loot tables. Rare items as well.

Each dungeon should have its own armor sets as well, even if its a retexture. However I only really see one set for ALL 2 dungeons.

Heavensward was suppost to be an expansion. I pretty much see an adventure pack. They put too much effort into useless zones that nobody ever goes to. Sorry to sadly say that, but its true. They have beautiful overland zones that are a TOTAL Joke and are unrelevant after you reach level 60.

[Sandpark]

I don't stand around and do nothing.

if I don't have something to do at any given time, I *gasp* log off and go do something else.

The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.

Had this been a decade ago, you wouldn't have very much choice in what games were available.

That's another thing folks forget about those older days. There was next to no competition. Everquest was the *only* game of it's type for a while, and XI never got big marketing. Asheron's Call(first one) didn't get much either, and it never really had a big population.

These were niche games. If they had 100k subscribers, they were lucky for the longest time.

Me? If i spend long hours in a game, I want to do it because I'm having fun. Farming rare drops? Not fun. Sitting on my arse waiting on respawns? Not fun. The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore. If I don't have a reason to log in every day, great. Gives me an excuse to go outside.

They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.



They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety.

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.