More Horizontal Progression please

[Nektulos-Tuor]

This is a no brainer.

Fatal Lifetap for dps because it's the only one that comes with extra damage.

Engorged for healers because the other bonuses don't help them heal the group.

Stoneskin for tanks because a damage reduction is usually way more valuable (smooths out damage spikes, reliable, helps with tank busters, works against magic damage and doesn't interfere with healers) than an RNG-dependent heal (only activates after the damage has been taken and can be wasted as overhealing). Tanks are also the role which has to deal with the least movement/dodging, so that's another reason why it's good for tanks.

The only valid playstyle flexibility comes from the choice between Fatal Lifetap (dps, self heals) and Stoneskin (survivability) for tanks, and this option is already in game in the form of strength and vitality accessories. You say that horizontal options just need to be made well so there is no BiS, but without situational stats like elemental resistances people will always figure out the most optimal gear setup for their role. You can be a BLM with PIE gear right now, but everyone knows it performs sub par. Why on earth would a BLM go for the Engorged bonus when it's painfully obvious Fatal Lifetap is the better option?

Don't get me wrong, I would love some special procs and bonuses on gear. But there will always be a Best in Slot item at any point in time, unless they make boss mechanics which require stacking a certain stat. In which case we are in a lot of trouble with our inventory space. "Different but equal" gear is a nice dream to have but in most cases raw maths will prove one better than the other. That's why I prefer vertical progression with some variety in effects, sort of like "the new tome gear is better than the old no doubt but this time we get to have a damage proc instead of leeching". One way to do this is set bonuses, another would be weapon enchants limited by item level.

I'm just giving you one example. There could be a necklace with a proc that deals more damage then fatal lifetap but hurts you. One that does between the two and does nothing besides damage. Or other procs.

There are several DPS classes in this game and besides a few I think need looked at, they are all good at DPSing. They are just "DIFFERENT" and have disadvantages and advantages. This SAME logic can also apply to procs and effects on gear.

Your evidence is right in-front of your face. It just needs work to succeed.

I am sure they can crunch numbers and find the best "DPS" class. However, since they are situation based and different there is playstyle choice in it.


Fatal Lifetap:
Deals 590 damage and heals 630 health.

Warding Strike
Deals 340 damage and prevents up to 350 damage.

Deadly Strike:
Deals 720 damage. No penalty

Sacrificing Blow:
Deals 870 damage and drains 350 life.

Draining Strike:
Deals 590 damage and heals 350 mana.

Concussive Blows:
Deals 350 damage to an encounter (grouped enemies.)

Earthshaker:
Deals 310 damage to all enemies around you.

Cleric Strike
Heals 320 for all allies around you.

Bloodthirsty
Increases base damage of all abilities by 10%.
Drains 5% max life whenever you use an ability.

[Xairos]

I really think this is a "grass is greener" post.

Horizontal Progression sounds great in light of all the vertical progression we currently have, but yeah.. Low drop rates and one piece of gear for a group of 8 ppl per week is kinda absurd. the Forums would gripe about the "wall" that is RNG and .0001% drops in a heartbeat.

[Synestra]

I really think this is a "grass is greener" post.

Horizontal Progression sounds great in light of all the vertical progression we currently have, but yeah.. Low drop rates and one piece of gear for a group of 8 ppl per week is kinda absurd. the Forums would gripe about the "wall" that is RNG and .0001% drops in a heartbeat.

Atma drops were pretty good indicator that FFXIV community does not like lowdrop RNG things.

[Amberyl]

Why is vertical progression so important? I really don't understand the argument, maybe someone can enlighten me.

It's an addiction inducing method, that ensures subscription funds through habit-forming daily content grind. Korean MMOs perfected it years ago, and SE are copy-pasting the structure, which is known to work. They only have so much development time, and horizontal progression doesn't ensure engagement in the same way.

[Felis]

More gear between ilevel 190 and 210 come with 3.1

[fortuona]

i don't care how it's accomplished, horizontal or vertical, but more interesting stat allocation (with secondaries reworked to not be meaningless and arbitrary, and new enhancements to job abilities added) is something that is much needed.

it feels like gear is only useful for progression raid checks, otherwise everything is tuned so that a minimum ilvl is all that is required, and that takes all the fun out of getting loot and gearing up.

[Nadirah]

Lets say they have the next raid in some kind of frigid northlands. As a result, players need to gather sets of gear that provide protection against ice damage to survive the environment and its denizens. That is what horizontal progression is. Instead of raising the item level, the raid set has some kind of situational stat. There are various reasons why this is useful, such as countering power creep in a game, but the primary reason a lot of people are asking for it is that WoW didn't do so hot after it raised its level cap too many times.

That's not why wow isn't doing so hot.

It's not doing so hot because its two phases are Facebook games(garrisons) or "raid or die", coupled with an obnoxious grind to unlock flying(which was the final straw for many.

After leveling a few times 1-cap to gets boring as balls. Even in Vanilla I had 1-60 down in 6 days /played so if you knew what you were doing it still didn't take long.

[Fendred]

That's not why wow isn't doing so hot.

It's not doing so hot because its two phases are Facebook games(garrisons) or "raid or die", coupled with an obnoxious grind to unlock flying(which was the final straw for many.

After leveling a few times 1-cap to gets boring as balls. Even in Vanilla I had 1-60 down in 6 days /played so if you knew what you were doing it still didn't take long.

I'm referring to more long term problems over the course of its life than its current state of affairs. It turned into what you are describing after many years, and is connected to the second part of what I wrote where the pacing of the game eventually became incompatible with the bulk of its material. It created a situation for itself where the only part of the game worth approaching as an MMORPG was at level cap because that was the only place in the game with enough people to be MMO material. No one wanted to level because the pacing was poorly balanced by the Cataclysm rework. Yet they had to rework the pacing or it would have taken people too long to get to max level. They were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

[Windklinge]

you just pointed out why max level raises are bad. on wow aswell. BECAUSE IT DOESNT TAKE LONG. its not content at all. its just a very tiny amount of time to reach new max level but it destroys all content up to that point to obsoletness AND it wastes devtime with stuff thats only used for said small leveling period. and then all that matters is endgame again and endgame is back to ZERO with a raise which forces devs to add new content FAST but devs are never able to keep up with players clearing stuff so they should focus an expansion on max level content ONLY. this gives them some BREATHING time for adding new stuff or developing new stuff and systems for a mmo.

there is countless forms of how horizontal progression can look like. there is many good AND bad examples out there of it^^ it CAN go wrong if the devs dont have a clue about it (e.g. aion) :/ but if they get into it theyll quickly find out what was successful and what not.

[Nadirah]

you just pointed out why max level raises are bad. on wow aswell. BECAUSE IT DOESNT TAKE LONG.

It *never* took long if you knew what you were doing.

That's the point. The hell you asking for, 20 year level grinds?

I'm referring to more long term problems over the course of its life than its current state of affairs. It turned into what you are describing after many years, and is connected to the second part of what I wrote where the pacing of the game eventually became incompatible with the bulk of its material. It created a situation for itself where the only part of the game worth approaching as an MMORPG was at level cap because that was the only place in the game with enough people to be MMO material. No one wanted to level because the pacing was poorly balanced by the Cataclysm rework. Yet they had to rework the pacing or it would have taken people too long to get to max level. They were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

I didn't want to level because I'd already leveled 20+ times.

It's never been really bad if you had one character, but when you're someone that had 6 60s, 8 70s, 7 80s, 11 90s and 7 or 8 100s(almost all of them actually being individual characters over different servers), it's BORING AS BALLS to do it the 20th time, and you want it over and done with as soon as farking possible.