NINJA BUFF PLEASE.

[Kaisersoke]

While the rest of the post in question is fairly hyperbolic, he means that Shadewalker and Smoke Screen don't have much use outside of the pull: Shadewalker on the main tank and Smoke Screen on the off tank. Outside of that, they don't really contribute an awful lot except for corner cases like healer overhealing or a tank death.

this. didnt think it had to be explained but the dps increase isnt really there if emnity is established.

[Sleigh]

If you're a raid leader, and you have three melee classes that all do the same damage, but one has TP refresh and can increase a target's damage taken by 10% for 10 seconds, why would you not just bring two of them so you can get double goad and 20s of trick attack? Would there be any reason at all to bring a monk instead of NIN/NIN or NIN/DRG for the piercing debuff and litany?

Party buffs like Litany, TA, Foe's, any excess of those is never as good as the original. IE 2 NINs for 2 Trick Attacks =/= the power of 1 TA X 2, since buffs multiply with each other (thus new buffs on openers = very strong, excess buffs after all CDs are done = only mildly as strong). Part of why, but definitely not limited to, why you'd never want to stack NIN/NIN or DRG/DRG compared to NIN/DRG.

[StouterTaru]

if we could tangibly and accurately calculate how much dps battle litany gave the raid, and attributed that damage to dragoon like so many do to ninjas trick attack, would drg be "balanced"? doubtful, but its a random thing so people pass the buck off to ninja.

Litany is roughly a 7% boost, that has a 20/180 second uptime (a little more of a boost for bards due to procs)
Trick Attack is roughly a 10% boost, that has a 10/60 second uptime

So trick attack is about twice as much of a boost as battle litany

[Kaisersoke]

Litany is roughly a 7% boost, that has a 20/180 second uptime (a little more of a boost for bards due to procs)
Trick Attack is roughly a 10% boost, that has a 10/60 second uptime

So trick attack is about twice as much of a boost as battle litany

you say this and it seems like it could be accurate, but then you say roughly, and then battle litany is a crit buff which just throws in rng.

to reiterate, i said accurately, which isnt possible because rng. battle litany also is more effective on crit stacking classes because of the new stat weights and multipliers, so its really not a question of which is better, but why is battle litany so overlooked during calculating dragoon balance, when its so obviously very strong utility.

[MrCookTM]

snip

I don't think anyone is arguing about drg's position, it is currently the best melee job in the game. Nin is not competing with drg, it's competing with mnk. And while mnk obviously has higher dps than nin, dragon kick is irrelevant with everyone and their mom running drk+war and while traited mantra is good, it does jack shit in terms of increasing overall raid dps when compared to nin's tools, especially when it comes to burning stuff quickly (i.e. equal concentration in A3S).

[ChalupaBatman]

They just need better TP management and somehow fix the Mudra issue, you will only see 1200's from NINs that have fast Mudras and that is an issue that is more important imo.

[StouterTaru]

you say this and it seems like it could be accurate, but then you say roughly, and then battle litany is a crit buff which just throws in rng.

to reiterate, i said accurately, which isnt possible because rng.

I say roughly because it will be different with different parties, different gear, different jobs, and different instances. RNG will move things up and down, but the numbers I gave are what's in the middle. It's as accurate as using the max from a bundle of parses to determine dps potential.

[Kaisersoke]

o

I don't think anyone is arguing about drg's position, it is currently the best melee job in the game. Nin is not competing with drg, it's competing with mnk. And while mnk obviously has higher dps than nin, dragon kick is irrelevant with everyone and their mom running drk+war and while traited mantra is good, it does jack shit in terms of increasing overall raid dps when compared to nin's tools, especially when it comes to burning stuff quickly (i.e. equal concentration in A3S).

i didnt say anything anywhere about nins or minks or drgs fighting for raid spots anywhere so this isnt really at all relevant. but traited mantra does wonders for allowing your secondary healer to stay in cleric during heavy aoe damage such as cascade in t3, and while it provides no offensive burst, its still good utility, and saying it isnt, is simply ridiculous

[Kaisersoke]

I say roughly because it will be different with different parties, different gear, different jobs, and different instances. RNG will move things up and down, but the numbers I gave are what's in the middle. It's as accurate as using the max from a bundle of parses to determine dps potential.

its not accurate in any calculable sense. you acknowledged rng for it varies and it has so many factors, and youre still not making any real point. you didnt do anything besides put some number that WIDELY varies group to group. Nin needs some tweaks, its blaringly obvious, from the low numbers in the census to how low the views and replies are compared to other classes on the forums, its a vastly unpopular class.

[StouterTaru]

youre still not making any real point

The OP was saying ninja damage is too low.
-My point was that with TA damage from teammates added in, ninja dps isn't behind by much at all

You said yeah but DRG has battle litany that adds to party damage too
-My point was that TA boosts party damage by about twice as much as litany

You responded about not being able to get accurate numbers on TA and litany
-You can't calculate anything accurately because of RNG by your logic. Ninja could actually have the potential to do 2-3x the dps of everyone else, but they've just had bad RNG.


You call ninja an unpopular class due to the census, but more people have rogue 41+ than any other class. In top level progression ninjas are there as often as any other dps except bard. All jobs need small tweaks, but none blaringly obviously except for MCH.