[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

[A_moth_called_rose]

https://youtu.be/fsk412wCrJY

Stumbled upon this video essay talking about some of the narrative moments involving Venat's lore and actions and how it might have rubbed players the wrong way. It's a lot more nuanced than "endwalker story bad"

[Yuella]

The fact is if she hadn't done it, the ancients' fate will be the same as the third part of the dead ends. All it takes is for them to say "O, Zodiark, we don't want to live anymore, please give us our eternal slumber" and poof, the end of life in Etheirys. If your kids drown their sorrows in alcohol and drugs, would you let them be or would you intervene?

[KizuyaKatogami]

The fact is if she hadn't done it, the ancients' fate will be the same as the third part of the dead ends. All it takes is for them to say "O, Zodiark, we don't want to live anymore, please give us our eternal slumber" and poof, the end of life in Etheirys. If your kids drown their sorrows in alcohol and drugs, would you let them be or would you intervene?

The issue is the hypocrisy the story frames everything in. Literally in UT they beat your head in with the fact that even if a society is doomed to fail it should be on their terms and let them be, not to further expedite the process. This is the issue with Venat. She is the villain in this scenario the scions constantly bring up.

[Cleretic]

Literally in UT they beat your head in with the fact that even if a society is doomed to fail it should be on their terms and let them be, not to further expedite the process.

And should that society not have input on their own fate?

The core difference between the Ancients and the societies of Ultima Thule is that most of Ultima Thule's fallen civilizations were due to outside impact; the dragons got hit by the Omicrons, the Grebuloffs fell to disease, the Karellians and Nibirun started their slides based on the influence of Meteion. The exceptions to this are the Ea and Omicrons, where debatably the crisis for both come from the fact that they didn't fall, they're both essentially gripped with crises of existential dread and 'what do we do now'.

The Ancients, meanwhile, fell to the Ancients. In fact, in all three of their possible endings, the fault lands at their own feet. Going in order of the times things spring up:
1. If for whatever reason they didn't come up with Zodiark, they would've died to the Final Days, which is pretty squarely Hermes' fault, although certainly Ancient society isn't entirely without blame.
2. If Hydaelyn didn't step on up to the plate, then everything we've been told would suggest that eventually they sacrifice the planet dry for Zodiark. This is more a societal thing, but if you want to put a face to this side, I'd personally say Elidibus.
3. And for what did happen, Hydaelyn leg-dropped from the top rope, leading to the Sundering. Venat's hands are the ones bloodied by this, clearly.

I would argue that the reason Venat comes off as 'the one villain' of this particular micro-story to some (which I think is a gross oversimplification of said micro-story, I'd say there's no villains in it) isn't because she's the only one with a gun, it's because she's the only one that landed her shot. Everyone else is only guilty of attempted murder, she managed to knock the 'attempted' off the crime list.

But something that must also be remembered is that her plan was the only one that would've left survivors. The End of Days would've wiped out the whole planet if not stopped (as evidenced by, weirdly, Hildibrand), and Zodiark sacrifices would've rendered the planet bone dry (as evidenced from the Nibirun). But the Sundering, (as evidenced by everything before Elpis and most of what's after it) didn't just leave a planet full of people, it left fourteen planets full of people, albeit mostly different people. That hardly makes her objectively morally right, but from an omniscient readers' perspective surely we can see that her decision the kindest and most ultimately fruitful out of all options.

While you are certainly allowed to disagree with her, Venat is not a villain. And to call her one requires brutally simplifying that part of the story in the single-minded pursuit to declare there to be one in the first place.

[KageTokage]

It's made all the more silly by the actual fact that the Nibirun are turned away from their nihilistic beliefs with relative ease at the end of the Omicron quests despite being framed as a possible end for the Ancients.

If the very people who fueled Venat's paranoia of a "death by apathy/perfection" weren't hopeless, it kind of undermines the message to me.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Yeah no, she is strictly a villain. Your entire hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. One that has been refuted time and time again. Your entire logic and framing of Venat relies upon people not thinking too hard and just immediately believing her and her mindset. The story literally contradicts itself numerous times. We see in the beast tribe quests the Niburun actually able to overcome their nihilism. Funny how before they were totally doomed right?

At the end of the day, the biggest condemnation for Venat will always be she didn’t even try to help her people. She didn’t try to warn them beforehand. She waited until the final days actually hit to even mention anything. Not even her followers knew the full story. That’s not something a hero does. That’s something a narcissistic person does who believe their own views are wholly right and won’t let anything get in their way. You’re assuming they would have constantly sacrificed to Zodiark forever when that’s not even explicitly stated, it’s an assumption, one directly refuted by Hythlodaeus in ShB.

But regardless, in the end no, it’s not her choice to condemn all her people to death. Just as the scions themselves said it would be wrong to doom another world to save your own, and that everyone deserves a chance even if it ends in their death. Venat didn’t give them that chance, she didn’t even try any other way.

If you want to talk about gross oversimplification, it’s what you’re doing with basically attributing Zodiark as nothing more than a blood god demanding more and more sacrifices.

Also just to clarify again, because i feel this isnt spoken about enough. The kindest of all options would be to tell her people the truth and help them combat the final days. That is if she actually cared about her people and wanted them to survive. The kindest option isnt to stay quiet and watch as people are being massacred and sacrificing themselves to save their people and then condemning them for it and killing billions.

[Cleretic]

At the end of the day, the biggest condemnation for Venat will always be she didn’t even try to help her people.

Forgive me for having to break out some formatting for this one, I hope it helps you understand this.

SHE DID!

As evidence: The final cutscene of Beneath the Surface--the Anamnesis Anyder quest, and the first time in which Venat was ever named:

Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same.
I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.
I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.
Whither tend your thoughts, Venat? Where you lead, we will follow.

Venat:
I shall not speak ill of the Convocation─they too seek only to secure the future of our star.
Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?
If so, I see no further reason to demur.
Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

The text of this is, I thought, clear as day: Venat's crew literally were trying to warn the Convocation, and were getting nowhere.

One might ask why they took so long, as this was after the second sacrifice. And the answer to that lies in the first of the cutscenes in Thou Must Live, Die, and Know--the quest after Ktisis Hyperboreia. I won't quote the entire passage, because it's rather long.

[...]
With Meteion free to pursue her designs, 'tis only a matter of time until the Final Days are upon us.
We must be ready. From fortifying our defenses to securing our escape, there is much to be done.
In spite of this, we cannot allow the report that set this calamity in motion to become common knowledge. Were the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.
I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe.
Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come.
Quite the dilemma... Which is why I must work independently of the Convocation.
[...]
We could not hope to survive the Final Days, much less take the battle to Meteion at her nest.
We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead.
Heavy will weigh the burden of guiding this legion of souls...
Yet I have faith in mankind's potential. As long as he believes in himself, there is naught he cannot achieve. So I will not give up on him. On us.
You may find your world to be very different. Or perhaps the erasure of our friends' memories has sown the seeds of a conjunction between us.
We cannot know until the moment is at hand. So shall I strive to do my best, taking naught for granted as I walk my path.

There's a lot of things being said here, but fortunately, it's all directly in the text, not the subtext.
1. That immediately, she wants to 'fortify defenses and plan their escape'. This is very clearly a plan of action at an early stage; she doesn't know how to do this, only that it has to happen.
2. That she can't just tell everyone, because that's only going to cause mass panic. (She's right.) As a result, she has to pick carefully for secrecy and emotional integrity if nothing else.
3. While the Convocation would normally be her go-to, she immediately rules out talking to or working with them at this point, because their standard procedure both would and already has caused problems; we'd just see a repeat of the exact same responses that led to Ktisis in the first place. This clearly changed by the time of Anamnesis, but is true at the time she said it.
4. Hermes also can't be alienated or excluded, because he's integral to protecting the planet in the first place. Venat actually didn't have material evidence of this, she doesn't know how he'll be important, just that he will be.
5. She's doing her level best, and clearly not putting reliance on the time loop situation; in fact, she's clearly willing to strand us if that's what it takes, and just hopes that it doesn't.

Therefore: yes, we can safely and confidently assume that Venat tried to help her people, and just couldn't be open about it. All evidence about this leads towards 'she tried her best, and her best wasn't enough'.


I'm going to request that if you reject any of this, you do so with actual in-game evidence, rather than just broad dismissal and denial. I'm trying to put forward my viewpoint, readings and evidence in full view and in good faith, and I hope you are, too.

[Kozh]

The text of this is, I thought, clear as day: Venat's crew literally were trying to warn the Convocation, and were getting nowhere.

1. Yeah, *after* the FD happens and they already summon zodiark

2. Warn =/= help when all she did is preach without offering any solution nor compromise

1. That immediately, she wants to 'fortify defenses and plan their escape'. This is very clearly a plan of action at an early stage; she doesn't know how to do this, only that it has to happen.

So what exactly the realization of this plan? Show me in-game evidence

2. That she can't just tell everyone, because that's only going to cause mass panic. (She's right.)

How do you know she’s right when they never show us the proof? All we know that not telling anyone also results in people mass panicking because they don’t know what the cause of FD and have to waste time researching blasphemies and identifying its link to aether current.

3. While the Convocation would normally be her go-to, she immediately rules out talking to or working with them at this point, because their standard procedure both would and already has caused problems; we'd just see a repeat of the exact same responses that led to Ktisis in the first place. This clearly changed by the time of Anamnesis, but is true at the time she said it.

In Ktisis they’re trying to prevent meteion escaping and to question hermes since they (and WoL) don’t know what will happen. Also, what procedure causing problem, exactly?

4. Hermes also can't be alienated or excluded, because he's integral to protecting the planet in the first place. Venat actually didn't have material evidence of this, she doesn't know how he'll be important, just that he will be.

So it’s all just her hypothesis that she alone came up with, without even knowing the full picture.

5. She's doing her level best, and clearly not putting reliance on the time loop situation; in fact, she's clearly willing to strand us if that's what it takes, and just hopes that it doesn't.

What?

[Lyth]

Ah, this is that video series that your group kept advertising. I knew that I recognized this name from somewhere.

Another critical video analysis of Endwalker from Echoes of Etheirys, this time focusing on the writing’s treatment of Zenos.

https://youtu.be/F1wv4ehavhI

It does take a lot of effort to be an influencer. I think one difficulty that you'll encounter is that the debate over team Hydaelyn and team Zodiark has saturated this subforum for the better part of two years now, so a lot of people here are kind of just done with it. You may not get all that much benefit from placing this here.

I suspect the writers are also kind of done with this, which is why that metaphorical (and literal) story ship has sailed. If Endwalker truly was a 'lackluster' expansion, then you can be sure that they won't want to return to the subject matter of the Amaurotines and the Garleans any time soon. So you have been successful in a way, just not the one that you intended.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ah, this is that video series that your group kept advertising. I knew that I recognized this name from somewhere.



It does take a lot of effort to be an influencer. I think one difficulty that you'll encounter is that the debate over team Hydaelyn and team Zodiark has saturated this subforum for the better part of two years now, so a lot of people here are kind of just done with it. You may not get all that much benefit from placing this here.

I suspect the writers are also kind of done with this, which is why that metaphorical (and literal) story ship has sailed. If Endwalker truly was a 'lackluster' expansion, then you can be sure that they won't want to return to the subject matter of the Amaurotines and the Garleans any time soon. So you have been successful in a way, just not the one that you intended.

So op says they stumbled upon the video and you take that to mean they're part of some group behind said video? The leaps.