Just 5 simple changes for Paladin.

[MeeYow]

1. As nice as combat res would be, progression raiding means weakness would kill your party at the DPS check anyway.
PLD could always do with a little buff for overgeared farming though, when it will still be go go DPS.
If we only get a few changes, let's not waste one on this.

2. Yes, I feel the 'ermagerd war tank stance' argument doesn't hold up here, 2.0 has classes before WAR which got stance mechanics and they were off global swapping, now we have them everywhere (wanderers, gauss, venoms, the list goes on). It's not making the classes all the same, that would be changing the stances to behave in the same way. It seems a bit precious/special snowflake the Warrior back lash over 2 GCDs to remove one of the most jarring clunky aspects in both PLD and DRK. It is a minority of the community though. Keep MP cost, oGCD. Yes to resource management, No to clunk.

3. Butchers comparison is false because no maim or accounting for enmity bonus. This buff is unneeded though, RoH should probably have a slight potency buff instead, it is the MT disparity that hurts. 300 pot RoH is still short of BB with maim, float the number somewhere there. I would rather the debuff on RoH was swapped with storms path and the enmity mod raised to 6 (if the other classes stay at 5.5, basically 5.5 more to balance the lower potency being lower hate) than it was given a potency buff. I am fine with theme of a defensive/party protecting tank, it just has to actually feel that way.

4. I like the high clemency cost, the fact it locks you into two per pool and gives a 30s MP recovery time if you are using shelltron and goring feels about right. I would rather The long cast time or interrupts were fixed, STR dependence was changed to pure weapon damage dependence, combo interrupt removed and the ability is changed to match Zerked equilibrium if cast on the PLD, with the current strength on an ally. I don't think a cure II with a 30s lockout is not unreasonable, strong parallel to healers as WAR is to DPS. Unlike Sentinel va Vengance. I think this is a situation where rare but strong is better and requires better decision making.

5. No. Shelltron did a lot of good for making PLDs mitigation more active (or it would if SE hadn't screwed us over on content that makes it bleh outside of A3S). Let shields block magic.


NOTE: These are one to one responses to each idea, I am NOT saying ALL of these things should be implanted as that might be OP. That said, I think these are in the right kind of range.

NOTE 2: As far as single target DPS goes I would like to see spirits within buffed to 400 or 500 in sword oath rather than a base GCD increase for two reasons:
1. SW used to be a special hard hitter and felt good to use, now it is sub RA and just another boring GCD if you aren't silencing.
2. Locking it behind Sword Oath makes PLD have to put some effort into getting at that extra damage while they are tanking. I really want to push the stance dancing meta, whilst the tank DPS meta is not necessarily healthy, stance dancing is really good for tanking, both in pushing up the otherwise low skill ceiling and just being fun.

[Ultimatecalibur]

2. Yes, I feel the 'ermagerd war tank stance' argument doesn't hold up here, 2.0 has classes before WAR which got stance mechanics and they were off global swapping, now we have them everywhere (wanderers, gauss, venoms, the list goes on). It's not making the classes all the same, that would be changing the stances to behave in the same way. It seems a bit precious/special snowflake the Warrior back lash over 2 GCDs to remove one of the most jarring clunky aspects in both PLD and DRK. It is a minority of the community though. Keep MP cost, oGCD. Yes to resource management, No to clunk.

Paladin and Dark Knight stance changes are only clunky when done outside of their intended times. If the Warrior did not have such an easy time swapping between stances far fewer would be calling the DRK/PLD srance changes clunky and asking for them to be changed.

Also the other "stances" used by the other jobs have different purposes. The only difference between Wasp Venom and Viper Venom is the effects of two oGCD abilities. Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel were added to lessen the dps gap between BRD/MCH and the other ranged dps in low mobility fights.

I really want to push the stance dancing meta, whilst the tank DPS meta is not necessarily healthy, stance dancing is really good for tanking, both in pushing up the otherwise low skill ceiling and just being fun.

No. Stance Dancing is bad for the tank meta despite how "fun" you find it. It is one of the major reasons that the tank meta is a mess: Because Warriors can so easily stance dance, they can get the most of the benefits of both stances. This lets them have their cake (DpS) and eat it too (Survive).

[Freyyy]

Stop doing threads like that seriously. Every day there is a new thread spawning about PLD changes. I think devs know that PLD needs love now, and forum posters are not in charge of job changes. Everyone wants to do his own little selfish thread about how they should change the job, each thread with different propositions. Just remember how WAR was in 2.0 and what they did in 2.1 to fix it. I am pretty confident in SE's work concerning job balance. They will fix it and it will be balanced. Just wait and see, and for the love of god, stop doing more and more threads like this about the same thing. If you really want to share your propositions there is already a ton of threads about PLD changes, you don't have to make your own just so people can notice you more.

[Sinaloa]

Paladin
1. Paladir
2. Paradir
3. Paraidr
4. Parroidr
5. Warridr

Mh.. well.. Close enough.

No offence meant to your proposals. Cant judge them since I haven´t played tank for years but this was what I read in the title.

[Hayward]

snip

I haven't gotten to PLD yet (still at 50), so I'll address what I can:

1) Without Swiftcast, this idea isn't so hot in most situations.

2) I can go for this. Riot Blade's MP recovery might have to be increased to cover the costs, though.

5) Since it's the next ability on my schedule, I'd be for this save for the increase in recast (3 minutes, 20 seconds is a bit long for any OGC ability)

Overall, It's encouraging to see someone offering useful solutions to improve the job instead of joining in the "Sky is Falling" chorus.

[Sapphidia]

I think these threads are reasonably interesting, but what's more important in my eyes is what DOESN'T need changing on paladins.

I think pretty much everyone knows that Paladins are broken/underpowered in the -current tank meta- of Alex Savage, and need some fixes and quality of life changes. These fixes need to ensure that they make them a viable choice for raidgroups on these encounters but also don't make them stronger than WAR/DRK in areas that arent supposed to be their speciality.

There's two things that Paladins DON'T need buffing imo:

- Potency of moves when in Sword Oath doing pure dps rotation.
- Any increased mitigation.

Those are fine as is. What a paladin DOES need is a combination of the following:

- Higher tank damage but only when in Shield Oath doing a threat rotation.
- Much higher threat on enmity moves to allow them to swap to Sword Oath more.
- Some kind of TP regen mechanic.
- Clemency being easier to use in some way (mana/interruptions/cast time etc).
- Changing to DPS stance not being quite so clunky.
- Shield Swipe being buffed to not be a dps+threat loss to press.

How they go about changing those is up to the devs of course, but those seem to be the most pressing issues that are making paladins uncompetitive.

I think they could potentially use Shield Swipe as a one-fix-fixes-all mechanic in a sense. If they hugely buffed its potency and threat (maybe making it 250 potency with x4 or x5 threat modifier or something) then paladin dps in Tank Stance would improve, they'd press it more often so it would solve some TP issues better (maybe make it only cost 20 or 30 TP too).

I do still feel that Clemency needs a QOL mechanic (I love hte idea about Shield Oath having a built in Surecast) and I think SAVAGE blade is the skill to boost threat on. If they made Savage Blade have a x5 modifier instead of x3 it would solve a lot too - overall threat, threat levels when doing Royal Authority rotations, and also fix the horrible very early game of Gladiators in early instances where Flash ends up doing more threat than Savage blade and single target boss tanking is really awkward if you have good downsynched DPS.

One other alternative would be to allow Sword oath to be used in tandem with Shield Oath, thus always on. This would give the 50 potency auto attack boost when tanking and would mean Paladins only have to turn shield oath OFF to swap to DPS mode. This might be too much but would certainly solve their issues of low tank stance dps and stance swapping.

But those would be my changes : Buff the threat of Savage Blade, buff the potency/threat/cost of Shield Swipe, make clemency somehow easier to get a cast off when tanking. And in an ideal world, allow Sword + Shield oath to both be active at the same time.

[Jican]

snip

1; Absolutely not. I don't see any reason for pld to raise in combat. The way the game is designed, you WILL be punished heavily for any deaths in case anyone one of your members can't team jump rope properly. The mechanics DEMAND that you know the fight inside and out through NUMEROUS attempts that when you fail you get absolutely nothing but practice in! Seriously though, I don't see this as a good move.

2; Absolutely, done as soon as possible, and I hate whomever thought otherwise. The current system is and has been a joke since the beginning.

3; no comment but this. We're tanks, we should be more worried about soaking damage than dealing damage. The issue, imho, is the game mechanics. The hard and soft enraging is the issue. If the fight takes 3 hours, fine, let it take three hours. If you win, you win. Enough of the boss enraged timers!

4; almost the same comment as 1. Tanks shouldn't be healing in combat, but since we have the ability to, yes, the risk-reward for this simply isn't worth it, MT or OT. The cast time simply takes too long for it to have any use. I can even justify the absurd cost of it, but by the time the cast is complete, it's either over-heal, or the person is dead.

5; I would rather see something changed, like a move that grants your shield the ability to block magic attacks over physical. Something like "holy shield" that you can cast on yourself and allow you to block magical attacks. Block already has a stupid amount of RNG to it, not allowing it to block magic attacks seems like Drk was created solely to cater to the savage content instead of creating content around the current jobs and what they had in mind at lvl 60 for everything.

[cgbspender]

1.Change cross class "Raise" to be able to use in battle.

Tell me what you think?

As a healer : 300% HELL NO.

[MeeYow]

Re Calliber

Quite the opposite: if you know the exact moment to swap, but have to swap early because doing so at the right time would interrupt the final step of your combo you lose dps despite your knowledge of the fight allowing for otherwise. PLD and DRK have that clunk.

There is a difference between something being clunky and it being difficult to deal with or use (Yes this is what happens in the worst cases, this isn't one of them, but not being worst case scenario doesn't mean something doesn't warrant a change). What to do is obvious and easy but you feel bad doing it because you know the standard that the rest of the classes have would reward knowledge and skill in the same situation.

You can't say stance dancing is bad because warrior is OP, the two are independently balancable. You can bring WAR in line without crashing down the skill ceiling. Any patch that reduces the influence of skill in any class is bad.

Let's see whether stance dancing is any good by asking the same question about the alternative:
Would the game be better if stance swapping was locked in combat like for AST?

[rawker]

Shield Swipe to be a 5-sec off GCD ability. Pot is halved when block mechanic isn't triggered. Ignores Shield Oath penalty. Adds a 25% chance to trigger greater shield bash where the next shield bash will not stun but with doubled potency and ignores shield oath penalty

Increase flash and halone enmity further.

Oaths does not interrupt combos and consumes a percentage of the PLDs current MP.

Blocks to mitigate magic damage at a lower potency.

Even faster auto attacks.

RoH will instead have a Def-down debuff when attacking the target's flank or rear