What if Tank classes could only meatshield?

[Shurrikhan]

I like that tanks do between 50% and 75% of a DPS's dps. I like when there is an option, if anything, for a tank-less dungeon party, if the game's CC and the players' skill allows it to be equally efficient. However, even with that extra half a DPS output in the mix, I do not think it should be more efficient, certainly not in most cases. It should simply be different (involving CC, more kiting, threat-swaps, and focused burns).

It is when one option clearly overwhelms the other that I find things to be working in an unintended manner, not when a tank realizes that they can do more additional dps than their healers at a given time, under given CDs b/t healer and respective tank, by dropping tank stance for a longer time rather than their healers using Cleric for a longer time. To remove either option (CS or Sword/NoGrit/Deliverance, etc.) 1) makes a far lower hurdle for maximizing a fight 2) makes fight difficulty feel painfully tiered -- survivable + ilvl + competent dps = done -- and 3) removes a huge portion of enjoyable synergy between tanks and healers. It would essentially just be a massive buff to the value of DPS, and the soonest possible exclusion of one or more of each non-DPS role (6 DPS EX or gtfo).

Try to fix that with making bosses hit even harder and you will only make the process of tanking even more rigid (look up D&T/Elysium order of tank CDs, copy exactly), RNG-dependant (AAs stacked with a buster = unavoidable wipe), and bore down every process but dps. It's a snowball that honestly has no real reason for starting.

What I feel ought to happen, if anything, is simply for there to be more interaction between healers and DPS, or possibly also even DPS and tanks, and for tanks who do not so greatly provide damage and are often shunted accordingly to either be raised slightly to an acceptable balance, or, better yet, to provide some benefit that is neither purely (self)-mitigation-based nor dps-based, preferably without stepping on other roles' toes (see Clemency and real healers). I'll personally probably most believe that things are working "as intended" only when each job shines in some way not just within, but also without its dedicated Trinity role.

When I choose, among a party of myself and 3/7 friends with no composition limitations, play tank, I do so because I feel like it will most accelerate party progress, whether through increased raid survivability, improved add-grabbing, or allowing larger pulls. Back when Cleric Stance dancing was relatively uncommon (pre-2.1), I'd queue AK as WHM because I felt that is where I could most improve the party's prospects of both surviving Demon Wall (vs. bees) and accelerating the clear. To me it's more about... a sort of geometry... than staunched archetypes, and I feel like it's only when no particular role is guaranteed its spot, but every job having equitable value, that the job system does its best work.

The meatshield Tank, or the stand-by-until-next-heal Healer may be traditional to the Role Trinity, but (especially the meatshield Tank) seem neither realistic nor engaging. It's like bringing an invincible Stoneclaw Totem, if said totem was simply a player, could move to grab adds, and could screw up. But most of the time, once a tank is truly a meatshield tank, ways to screw up, much like the tank's attention, rapidly decline.

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Edit: One change I'd like to see though is for Vitality to aid:
(1) Self-healing, such that the Clemency from a Slaying-acc PLD and the Clemency otherwise identically-geared Fending PLD are equal. If possible, same should be true of the healing from Inner Beast, Soul Eater, DA-Abyssal Drain, Bloodbath, etc., so that Strength doesn't add more survivability over time than Vitality does once exceeding the buster+AA limits of a fight.
and (2) Enmity, such that we aren't having to throw out more BB/PS/RoHs over time just because tiers are progressing and our right side isn't scaling our enmity while DPS are steadily continuing to climb in theirs.
At that point the comparison between Fending and Slaying really does become only one of raid damage vs. safety net.

(However, implementation would be a bit tricky. If it applied to more than Fending accessories in any way, it would have to come at cost of some of the dynamics of the tank modifiers; because vitality would have already raised self-healing and enmity by so much, each would have to be scaled back slightly, costing enmity modifiers and self-heal potency, or else requiring reduced contribution of Strength to each to balance tank outputs.)

As such, the better solution is probably just to simply mess with Fending accessories directly. If we do not want tanks to be using Slaying accessories until its archaeic content, we can simply add some +Strength (1/4 to 1/3 of Vit) and +Enmity (the remainder) to Fending accessories. If we want to leave Slaying in its current position of having some meaningful place in near-new content, add some Vitality to it that is unlocked only on tanking classes.

...Also, for the purpose of fairness, Defiance, at minimum, should affect healing abilities.

[Giantbane]

short answer: no

long answer: no, just make fending accessories more desirable to tanks, ideally putting str+vit on them. Every other job gets stronger and more powerful with their accessories. Tanks should too.

[Duelle]

short answer: no

long answer: no, just make fending accessories more desirable to tanks, ideally putting str+vit on them. Every other job gets stronger and more powerful with their accessories. Tanks should too.

I'd be okay with fending accessories being turned into "of the Bear" (a WoW suffix for items with STR and VIT on them, greater VIT and decent STR on them, generally meant for tanks).

[Takamorisan]

I'd be okay with fending accessories being turned into "of the Bear" (a WoW suffix for items with STR and VIT on them, greater VIT and decent STR on them, generally meant for tanks).

Pentamelds are for that, yeah you are going to dish 5-15 million gil, but they are worth the investment since you will be able to benefit from both attributes.



Now on thread, I rather have this double function, adds more stuff that I need to learn and things you can actually do during combat. The only thing I'd say that the gameplay needs its a way to make dps/tank stance transition more flexible for PLD, the rest the game is going in the right direction IMO.

[Duelle]

Pentamelds are for that, yeah you are going to dish 5-15 million gil

Thanks for reaffirming why I would want fending accessories to be changed. >.>

On an item that is supposed to have 100 STR or 100 VIT (this is for simplicity's sake, since I know VIT and STR are weighed differently and most likely have different costs in the item budget), "of the Bear" would go for something like 30 STR and 70 VIT. Crafted accessories would still be better (since in theory they'd be closer to a 50-50 split) while the adjusted fending accessories would place you at less of a disadvantage.

What about not changing the current system, since it's actually enjoyable for a lot of tanks?

I really don't understand the problem with stancedancing, or why it ruins the 'feel' of being a tank. Do people just think heavily armored fighters never go on the offensive or something?

Generally the tank stays defensive while the guys the mob is not paying attention to go stabby stab stab until it falls dead. That's how it works.

I don't have a problem with stance dancing; I did play a warrior in WoW since vanilla (back when you had to stance dance for lots of things). The thing is designing a tank around stance-dancing, balancing its DPS and mitigation with the other tanks and let people go nuts with it. Maybe add a combo action that changes your stance, making it fluid rather than pressing extra buttons.

The problem is that people want to force every tank to do it, and when we play tanks to be defensive so that the DPS can go stabby stab stab, we have an issue.

[Voldemort]

You still get your feeling of 'reward' from doing damage, but the design would shift to you completely catering to your party members and boil down to you hoping that they can beat down that pinata before you get tired.

(Once again; design only effective in Raid/Dungeon content where players are more or less forced to rely on other people)

A problem now arises with the other classes of the trinity, and no longer a problem with Tanks.

See, according to the original proposition you mentioned, all damage to a boss or mob would be completely dependent upon the DPS. In which case two perfect tanks, two perfect healers, and three perfect DPS-es would be undone by one suboptimal DPS (because the damage required by 4 DPS may not be enough with 3 good/1bad DPS)

The fact that the tanks and healers can bring something to the table allows for flexibility in a party to have subpar members.
If a healer is terrific at their job, they dont have to sit there casting cure over and over..... which is what I see all too often in dungeons. Rather, the healer can help out a DPS who decides to get face-lasered by the boss, or attacking adds that spawn in a fight.
If a tank is terrific at their job (which is not hard at all in the least. A tank who strictly only uses the butcher's block combo should never, under any circumstances, ever lose hate), they should be able to do something else other than tank. Which includes using their own buffs to help the healer, or putting in their DPS to help the party overall.


If Im doing Bismarck EX, and the party is standing on its back shaking violently about to be thrown off, I as a tank would want to be able to use Fell Cleave in a pinch to push in that last bit of DPS to win.
Not solely rely on my four DPS, hoping they mastered their rotations.

All the people you see tanking in Deliverance stance are the ones who have mastered their job. They have learned how to push their job to the limit by keeping hate and contributing to the overall party DPS.