Parsers and Problems

[Ryel]

snip

I can understand the sentiment here, but community issues are community issues and cases of harassment and bad player attitudes are ones that should be handled by the forum moderators and in-game GMs.

It should never ever be the case were concerns about the community are walls that prevent the game from taking positive steps forward in development, especially where it concerns tools that allow your players to become better at the game.

Allowing players to see their numbers and share accordingly through in-game means actually allows for more community development and discussion, you can see a lot of this already if you take a look at the job forums where things are posted like optimal rotation guides and BiS gear discussion etc, these are the building blocks that allow a community to actually form and flourish, to say that there will be an overall detriment to players as a whole is like trying to ban stopwatches from a track and field meet, or calculators in a math class.

There are already players who will use anything they can to harass others in game, report them and allow the GMs to handle those cases, but trying to shield the community from useful tools does not build a strong and productive playerbase nor does it paint a proper picture of the type of content that needs to be developed in the long run.

[Lux_Rayna]

I could get behind the parser crowd if they were honest about why they want it. All this talk about "bettering the community" is nauseating. You want a parser to single out and kick "bad" dps. Just say that and move on. Its not as if a parser will make a bad dps good, so stop acting as if itll help them.

The issue here is that bad is relative, especially when youre using arbitrary numbers to make that determination.

[Ryel]

I could get behind the parser crowd if they were honest about why they want it. All this talk about "bettering the community" is nauseating. You want a parser to single out and kick "bad" dps. Just say that and move on. Its not as if a parser will make a bad dps good, so stop acting as if itll help them.

The issue here is that bad is relative, especially when youre using arbitrary numbers to make that determination.

I can honestly say i wouldn't straight kick a player for bad DPS in 90% of content, i would however attempt to point out that they were under performing if it was to the detriment of the 7 other players in the run trying to clear content and try to offer suggestions to improve.

If after suggestions for improvement are made and the player in question either refuses to improve or is simply unable (once again to the detriment of the 7 other players attempting to clear content) then at that point i would probably try to find a replacement, no different than anyone can do now with an under geared tank who keeps dying or a healer who is unable to keep up with the healing requirements of an encounter.

So why is it acceptable to do so in the case of a tank or a healer but not in concern to a DPS?

[Verius_Nox]

I could get behind the parser crowd if they were honest about why they want it. All this talk about "bettering the community" is nauseating. You want a parser to single out and kick "bad" dps. Just say that and move on. Its not as if a parser will make a bad dps good, so stop acting as if itll help them.

The issue here is that bad is relative, especially when youre using arbitrary numbers to make that determination.

I could get behind the people against parsers crowd if they were honest about why they don't want it.

Accept the fact that some of us actually do want tools for the community so they can perform better at their chosen role. The more people who can play decently well, the more pick up group runs that go smoother with less bickering and more relaxed atmospheres.

As for the notion that a parser doesn't make a bad dps good, the majority of the people whom I have known over the years have only gotten better at being a DPS when I introduce them to a way to measure themselves.

[Sapphic]

I could get behind the parser crowd if they were honest about why they want it. All this talk about "bettering the community" is nauseating. You want a parser to single out and kick "bad" dps. Just say that and move on. Its not as if a parser will make a bad dps good, so stop acting as if itll help them.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Doesn't make it true though.

[Coatl]

I could get behind the parser crowd if they were honest about why they want it. All this talk about "bettering the community" is nauseating. You want a parser to single out and kick "bad" dps. Just say that and move on. Its not as if a parser will make a bad dps good, so stop acting as if itll help them.

The issue here is that bad is relative, especially when youre using arbitrary numbers to make that determination.

People already kick and single out bad DPS for being bad. Lest you forget, PC players already have parsers available to them through 3rd party means. Some people are jerks, and they will be use whatever tools in their possession to make people feel bad. No arguments there.

But please consider that console players have no access to parsers and therefore have no way of telling whether they are doing bad or good. Although it might not be a minority that you personally care about, you cannot deny that it would help DPS that play on console tremendously.

[Ashkendor]

I could get behind the parser crowd if they were honest about why they want it. All this talk about "bettering the community" is nauseating. You want a parser to single out and kick "bad" dps. Just say that and move on. Its not as if a parser will make a bad dps good, so stop acting as if itll help them.

The issue here is that bad is relative, especially when youre using arbitrary numbers to make that determination.

I bet you'd kick a tank that didn't keep his enmity above the "arbitrary number" of "higher than the DPS/heals".

I bet you'd kick a healer that didn't keep the party's HP above the "arbitrary number" of zero.

The numbers aren't arbitrary when you're talking about things like enrage mechanics. The only people I see not wanting parsers are people that would rather no-worries button-mash on DPS than have some actual freakin responsibility to the other people in the party. That's just it though - we already take care of it if the content isn't getting cleared. Enough people already use parsers that horrendous DPS frequently find themselves kicked. The problem stems from the fact that right now they generally have no idea why they were kicked so they do nothing to improve. We can't confront them because we use third party software for parsing. Given a choice between risking a ban and some randie you'll never see again not knowing why he got kicked, it's obvious which one people will take. An ingame parser makes it so there is irrefutable evidence that awful DPS are doing something wrong.

[Lux_Rayna]

So why is it acceptable to do so in the case of a tank or a healer but not in concern to a DPS?

If I had to guess, its because a tank/healer knows theyll have responsibility going in and accepted that as part of the job. A DPS does not really have responsibility at the outset, so trying to introduce some will naturally create resistance.

Personally I take no issue with singling out DPS. I dont think itll be done intelligently though, given our track record.

[Ryel]

A DPS does not really have responsibility at the outset, so trying to introduce some will naturally create resistance.

If it's generally agreed that the responsibility of a tank is to hold enmity and output damage while mitigating incoming damage (pop CDs) and the responsibility of a healer is to shield / keep the party alive. Would you not consider it the responsibility of a DPS to contribute enough damage to be able to progress / clear the fight, in addition to killing adds / handling whatever mechanics are required?

As far as content design is concerned any fight with a DPS check (hard enrage / wipe mechanic) is saying that DPS do hold a share of the responsibility in clearing a fight, so why are we unable to hold them accountable to the standards that the developers themselves are putting forward?

These aren't player requirements being put forward, but the very nature of the fights that are asking for a certain level of performance.

Personally I take no issue with singling out DPS. I dont think itll be done intelligently though, given our track record.

If fights are going to continue to be based around DPS checks then how can this be intelligently handled in the future? Any suggestions?

[KaijinRhada]

It's only to be expected that any and all discussions turns into a furious (as in hotly discussed) debate. I support parsers, and I while I won't reiterate any counters that were made in regards to why the disdain of DPS meters exist (discrimination already happens, just that we can't say why, and quite a few of us already and continue to point out advantages to having parsers), I want to bring up two examples where a parser could help.

I normally don't give two shits about other's DPS in most DF and LFG runs, because as long as things die, that's all that matters to me. Now if you throw in a healer that couldn't heal themselves out of a paper bag while I tank (only starts healing me from 20%), oh boy it becomes a long and painful run. If I as a tank came #2, and not far from #1, I would be quite concerned, considering that the longer the fight went, the more chances I had to die, because the healer was slacking big time. In any similar case, I would call out the healer, but good DPS makes such a big difference in these runs. If one of the underperforming DPS was something I was familiar with (like any melee), with solid numbers and looking at what they were doing, it's an easy diagnosis there. I could then offer some advice if needed, but since parsers are in that limbo of "don't ask, don't tell," I can't say anything with perceived credibility.

Now in Alexander, the DPS are two monks, a machinist, and a black mage. On this run the machinist was top three with the monks, pulling more than 1k, the black mage on the other hand was hovering around 650 for example. You want to bet how many people would recognize how well the machinist was doing though? Probably zero. You want to bet who would be first to be kicked had the DPS shown signs of real struggling? The machinist, because even though this machinist was great, the "durr machinists suck" mentality is there, and people have no proof over who did what, but because they get such a bad rep, they are the the first to be suspected and kicked.

DPS meters aren't an "I win" button, they aren't replacements for practice, they don't turn people into assholes (because they already were assholes). They are tools. They can help pin point and diagnose issues, they can offer tangible and real time data on your performance, and you can use that with practice to tighten up your rotation. I don't like the "don't ask, don't tell" limbo parsers are in, and I like it even less playing a guess who game on where any given group can improve, but my main thing with a meter is that it helps me practice on improving myself. If I didn't have numbers, testing out different openers and rotations would be rather less solid.