Parsers and Problems

[Fendred]

They wouldn't need parsers if they just made the damage based around a burst model instead of a sustained rotation model. FFXI didn't need parsers because the group either pulled off the skill chain or they didn't. It was visibly obvious when something was wrong. There are other ways to set up burst DD systems other than interweaving skill chains between players, and in all cases it becomes visibly obvious when someone is failing at their job. Combined with item level, that should be more than enough to invalidate most reasons for introducing a parser.

Plus, most people playing the game will not know how to properly interpret the results of a parser even if they had one. Designing the combat so they are not needed is the better solution.

[Odett]

Designing the combat so they are not needed is the better solution.

Yeah, overhauling a 2-year-old game's combat system is obviously the better solution compared to giving everyone a tool to measure DPS.

I did A1S yesterday with most people from my static and 3 PF DPS. We kept dying to Faust at 12% consistently. We had no way of knowing who was underperforming/how to improve group DPS because we had no way of measuring DPS, so instead we had to call it quits. A parser would have helped with this.

[Zeonx]

snip

Help like how kick people? They paid their subscription and is allowed to fight that fight, he got into the fight because the requirements were met.

You have to understand even if your DPS is greater that doesn't mean your dodging skills or healing skills or mechanics of the fight are going correctly so even if you were to kick the lowest person with the DPS you are not going to win.

Plus it almost sounds like you want to try and get someone with better attack damage to win you the fight and does all the work for your team you kick till that is accomplished then never return to the fight cause well if you went through all that work to win something's a problem. It aint the dps.

[sirDarts]

Help like how kick people? They paid their subscription and is allowed to fight that fight, he got into the fight because the requirements were met.

You have to understand even if your DPS is greater that doesn't mean your dodging skills or healing skills or mechanics of the fight are going correctly so even if you were to kick the lowest person with the DPS you are not going to win.

Plus it almost sounds like you want to try and get someone with better attack damage to win you the fight and does all the work for your team you kick till that is accomplished then never return to the fight cause well if you went through all that work to win something's a problem. It aint the dps.

If his abysmally low DPS means the content is not getting cleared, then he is wasting the time, and thus interfering with the enjoyment, of 3 or 7 other players. Those players are also paying a subscription... 3 > 1, 7 > 1... So yeah...

And when the content is getting cleared? NOBODY GIVES A DAMN about low DPS then! And those who do are just idiots and would be the same no matter if they have a parser or not.

[Zeonx]

If his abysmally low DPS means the content is not getting cleared, then he is wasting the time, and thus interfering with the enjoyment of 3 or 7 other players. Those players are also paying a subscription... 3 > 1, 7 > 1... So yeah...

And when the content is getting cleared? NOBODY GIVES A DAMN about low DPS then! And those who do are just idiots and would be the same no matter if they have a parser or not.

As like the forums, nobody is going to agree with a parser because it causes problems in the community and SE doesn't want problems in the game and then that goes back to the forums with more complaints.

Cause I don't agree with the parsering I see the attitudes of people who use them, its a video game people need to stop cussing and judging people how they play the game and calling them stupid and other crap because they can't beat a virtual monster.

That isn't anyones right to do, you are saying its justified you are wrong.

People have to dodge aoe's also do you guys also count that some just cant attack, blm's casting gets messed up or dps have to move out of way or there is a stack of aoe dmg on ground they cant get around or one person dies and is weakened so they die easy to dmg.

as I said parser's should not be allowed in game. gives people poor judgement over others causes problems.

[Kaurie]

As like the forums, nobody is going to agree with a parser because it causes problems in the community and SE doesn't want problems in the game and then that goes back to the forums with more complaints.

Cause I don't agree with the parsering I see the attitudes of people who use them, its a video game people need to stop cussing and judging people how they play the game and calling them stupid and other crap because they can't beat a virtual monster.

That isn't anyones right to do, you are saying its justified you are wrong.

People have to dodge aoe's also do you guys also count that some just cant attack, blm's casting gets messed up or dps have to move out of way or there is a stack of aoe dmg on ground they cant get around or one person dies and is weakened so they die easy to dmg.

as I said parser's should not be allowed in game. gives people poor judgement over others causes problems.

It is concerning that you apply everyone who uses a parser under the same category of personalty. You go on to say that people are wrong for cussing/insulting others, which is true, but don't think about the fact that you are acting in a very prejudice manner. (Which I hope you can agree is also wrong).

I personally agree with parsers, as do many, which negates your "nobody is going to agree with a parser".

This game mechanically needs one, there are too many situations where it's necessary. People get around that by using 3rd party stuff and don't talk about it, but that's pretty lame in my opinion. Content is designed around tight DPS checks.

Additionally, parsers do a great job of pointing out who messes up on mechanics. Often someone's DPS is low because they keep dying and messing up mechanics. Personally? I go from 1100 to 700 dps often when I die before the wipe on my progression runs.

[sirDarts]

As like the forums, nobody is going to agree with a parser because it causes problems in the community and SE doesn't want problems in the game and then that goes back to the forums with more complaints.

Cause I don't agree with the parsering I see the attitudes of people who use them, its a video game people need to stop cussing and judging people how they play the game and calling them stupid and other crap because they can't beat a virtual monster.

That isn't anyones right to do, you are saying its justified you are wrong.

People have to dodge aoe's also do you guys also count that some just cant attack, blm's casting gets messed up or dps have to move out of way or there is a stack of aoe dmg on ground they cant get around or one person dies and is weakened so they die easy to dmg.

as I said parser's should not be allowed in game. gives people poor judgement over others causes problems.

Parsers are just a tool. Tools can be abused sure, but they are still useful! Parsers are incredibly useful for many things, be it personal development, challenge, figuring out the issue in content that's not getting clear, etc...

FFXIV has one of the most mature and nice communities on the MMO market. I am fairly certain that more than 90% of people would not abuse parser, and those that would could easily just be punished for abuse... There is no reason to deny a useful tool to 90% of the community because of 10% of rotten apples...
I have really done A LOT of DF runs. A LOT! And I have met very few people who commented at all about someone else's abilities/skill/etc. Like in many hundreds of runs I have met maybe a dozen. Sure I don't count people who just instaleave when something goes wrong, but those are not really abusers in my eyes.
For example today I did Trial Roulette, got Titan HM, like 3 or 4 people were new. We wiped pretty quick on our first try because of some stupid mistakes, even on my part, nobody complained. Second try the second healer got pushed off right after the second jump, people kept dying to bombs/AoE, and I had to soloheal. We cleared with an average of 2 DPS being dead ever since the Heart phase. Did someone complain? Did someone push blame? Did someone get angry? Nope. The only comment about personal skill was: "Gj Elyza, thanks" from one of the tanks.

As for your "you have no right to judge others!":
1) You are wrong, every single person has the right to judge others based on their behaviour/skill/etc and we do it all the time. What you are not allowed to do is to abuse people because of it.
2) Tanks and healers are already getting judged openly all the time, and they don't get any slack cut. They mess up, and they called out, maybe even kicked. While DPS can just stand there autoattacking and nobody will say a word.


Parsers should be allowed in the game.

[Ashkendor]

Help like how kick people? They paid their subscription and is allowed to fight that fight, he got into the fight because the requirements were met.

I pay my subscription too. So do the other six people in the party. If one person's low DPS is holding the group back and they can't or won't improve, then yes the only solution is to kick them. Why disband when one person is the problem?

You have to understand even if your DPS is greater that doesn't mean your dodging skills or healing skills or mechanics of the fight are going correctly so even if you were to kick the lowest person with the DPS you are not going to win.

I think you meant "you may not win," which is entirely true. The thing is, people that use parsers don't just look at numbers and go "omg these are low." They have to take into account the structure of the encounter itself. Faust tends to have very high numbers on parses because the best strategy is to have one tank take the boss and all the adds and everyone else go to town. That means that any AoE ability is picking up ticks on all the adds. Add to that the fact that Faust is basically a striking dummy that hits back and you end up with some really inflated DPS numbers. On the other hand, fights like T9 tend to have lower numbers on account of downtime while you're waiting for mechanics to go off (iron chariot, megaflare, divebombs, etc).

Plus it almost sounds like you want to try and get someone with better attack damage to win you the fight and does all the work for your team you kick till that is accomplished then never return to the fight cause well if you went through all that work to win something's a problem. It aint the dps.

Or maybe we just want to get someone that performs equal to or better than the people we already have.

One DPS can't carry in Savage, but you do need all four performing well to clear it.

As like the forums, nobody is going to agree with a parser because it causes problems in the community and SE doesn't want problems in the game and then that goes back to the forums with more complaints.

Completely untrue. I'd love to have an ingame parser.

Cause I don't agree with the parsering I see the attitudes of people who use them, its a video game people need to stop cussing and judging people how they play the game and calling them stupid and other crap because they can't beat a virtual monster.

If someone uses a hammer to hit someone else's hand, does that mean we should outlaw hammers even though they're incredibly useful? That's precisely the mentality you're taking with parsers here. A parser is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. Unfortunately, stupid people have the same access to tools that the rest of us do; the difference is that they usually use them incorrectly. Even if I am parsing and someone's DPS is less than stellar, I see no need to confront that person about it unless it's holding us back from completing content. Even in that case, there's ways to go about it without cussing and berating people. I usually just tell them that it's not working out, and they may need to do some tweaking on their gear or some research into their rotation.

That isn't anyones right to do, you are saying its justified you are wrong.

People have to dodge aoe's also do you guys also count that some just cant attack, blm's casting gets messed up or dps have to move out of way or there is a stack of aoe dmg on ground they cant get around or one person dies and is weakened so they die easy to dmg.

Again, people that know what they're doing with a parser take these things into account. BLMs aren't expected to put up as much DPS in movement-heavy fights, but honestly a good BLM can do really well once they get familiar with an encounter and know where to position themselves for different phases. Deaths, however, are not an excuse for low DPS. If someone is dying repeatedly, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. What's killing them? Is it a healer issue or do they need to learn to dodge? Maybe there's a mechanic we don't fully understand. Parsers also show you what healing spells were cast on who, how much overheal there was, how long the encounter lasted, what skills hit who, and how many times everyone died.

as I said parser's should not be allowed in game. gives people poor judgement over others causes problems.

This to me is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and pretending DPS problems can't be easily fixed.

[Odett]

Help like how kick people? They paid their subscription and is allowed to fight that fight, he got into the fight because the requirements were met.

You have to understand even if your DPS is greater that doesn't mean your dodging skills or healing skills or mechanics of the fight are going correctly so even if you were to kick the lowest person with the DPS you are not going to win.

Plus it almost sounds like you want to try and get someone with better attack damage to win you the fight and does all the work for your team you kick till that is accomplished then never return to the fight cause well if you went through all that work to win something's a problem. It aint the dps.

Ok, let's get started...

"Help like how kick people? They paid their subscription and is allowed to fight that fight, he got into the fight because the requirements were met."

Paying for your subscription only allows you to log into the game when it is up. H.ave you even entered Alex Savage? There is no set iLv requirement.

"You have to understand even if your DPS is greater that doesn't mean your dodging skills or healing skills or mechanics of the fight are going correctly so even if you were to kick the lowest person with the DPS you are not going to win."

Faust is a target dummy fight. There is no dodging. Healing skills don't matter if Faust enrages. He has to be killed before he enrages. Hence the term "DPS race".

"Plus it almost sounds like you want to try and get someone with better attack damage to win you the fight and does all the work for your team you kick till that is accomplished then never return to the fight cause well if you went through all that work to win something's a problem. It aint the dps."

...what? That was a bit hard to understand, but to answer your question, having a parser would allow us to see where everyone stands DPS-wise. This would let us know if we need to get better gear, or if someone is underperforming, find out why and see how we can improve our group DPS instead of asking "what went wrong?". By now I can tell that you haven't done any raid content when it is viable because one dps cannot carry a group. My static is not at the level of carrying other players. We need everyone to put forth a good amount of effort so we can clear these fights. We have no space for someone wanting to get carried.

[Sapphic]

Help like how kick people? They paid their subscription and is allowed to fight that fight, he got into the fight because the requirements were met.

So you would be perfectly fine in hard content if the tank couldn't or didn't evern try to hold enmity and the mobs where running all over the place killing everyone else? Or a healer that refuses to heal in hard content?

No you wouldn't. No one would. You would tell them and if no change, replace them. But that would be blatently obvious. Yet when It comes to DPS there isn't on all jobs obvious things to see if they are underperforming at the level neeeded to clear content. Parsers will show that. Or, more often than not, they think they are doing fine when they aren't. Parsers will show them the reality of why they cannot progress on content.

Wouldn't you prefer to know why you can't do certain content? Instead of continuing oblivious to the facts of why you cannot progress.

Tanks are accountable for mistakes or playing badly, healers are held accountable for mistakes and playing badly because it is painfully obvious when they do.

When I play tank and I screw up, bad things happen and it's obvious. When I run as SCH and I mess up, players die. Yet as MNK if I messed up my rotation, as i'm with other DPS, then it is not obvious.

Now give me a reason why DPS cannot be held to the same accountability as tanks and healers.