Parsers and Problems

[Preypacer]

Seems to me that, as we get further and further into the game's life-cycle, and more and more content - including the most extreme - is being cleared without need of an official parser to do so, that the idea of one being necessary becomes less and less convincing, while the idea of one - for anything other than purely personal training/tracking purposes - seems more and more redundant.

The player base has proven, and continues to prove,that it doesn't need a DPS meter to complete content. To try and argue that it does is really pretty silly. It's a 'want', at best. It's definitely not a "need".

However, any such implementation should remain purely for personal information. A player should be able to see their own scores, with perhaps a comparison to the average or top numbers currently on record for any given content. This way, if the individual wishes to refer to that data for their own use... they can. If they wish to ignore it because they're doing just fine even without it (as we all have been since 2.0 launched, unofficial parsers notwithstanding).

If an individual wishes to share their parsed data, cool, they can. But it's their choice to make. The choice isn't made for them.

Making all people's parser data publicly viewable, for all others to see, especially in a group situation (across all content) is just asking for trouble. For people who are prone to being a-holes to everyone else already, you're just giving them more ammunition to do so with.

And let no one kid themselves... This does happen, and has happened, in every MMO to ever release, for well over a decade now. So long as there are people who have this "need" to divide the player base into "us against them", using any divisive means they can muster - and there many such people - you can guarantee they are going to be all over that should DPS stats be viewable to them.

Hell, even without that data, there are already people who will complain about others' performance, for nothing more than "this run is taking longer than it should" - even if bosses are being cleared, and no one's dying or running out of MP, etc. I've specifically had that happen in many of my parties... including pre-50 content. Giving these people actual numbers to work with is just pouring fuel into the fire.

Yoshi-P is aware of this. He knows how people in the MMO space can be. I believe that's why he's so reticent and guarded about implementing such a feature, and so cautious in how it's implemented. And he has the right of it.

So, implement a DPS meter that's entirely for private use, for private viewing and reference, and leave it at that. Many have argued it's solely for personal growth and improvement, so that's fine... leave it as such. Don't make such a thing publicly viewable.

[Colorful]

snip

The most extreme content is not being cleared without the use of parsers, unless you believe that dungeons are the most extreme form of content? Most, if not all serious raid groups parse. That's how they recruit DPS (not only parse numbers of course, but their ability to deal with mechanics). They don't use an official parser because that's not an option as of now, but I'm sure console players would absolutely love access to a parser. I think they should implement a public parser for Extreme & Savage content, other content doesn't need it.

Regardless of all that, a parser that's allowed by the game rules will happen with the addon API is implemented as I've stated earlier, and it will be available for use in all content. Harassment still won't be allowed, and you will be reported for doing so, now and then.

[Preypacer]

The most extreme content is not being cleared the use of parsers, unless you believe that dungeons are the most extreme form of content? Most, if not all serious raid groups parse. That's how they recruit DPS (not only parse numbers of course, but their ability to deal with mechanics). They don't use an official parser because that's not an option as of now, but I'm sure console players would absolutely love access to a parser. I think they should implement a public parser for Extreme & Savage content, other content doesn't need it.

Regardless of all that, a parser that's allowed by the game rules will happen with the addon API is implemented as I've stated earlier, and it will be available for use in all content. Harassment still won't be allowed, and you will be reported for doing so, now and then.

There's a parser in use, but answer me this... Until the fight was cleared, did anyone know what DPS (or healing, etc) was required to do so?

No, they didn't.

That information can only be attained by actually clearing the fight (possibly multiple times, to allow for margins of error or whatever) and then looking at what everyone's numbers look like.

Yet, it was cleared... without any such data to rely on or compare to.

People have learned how to clear the content, through practice and persistence. Not through relying on parser data.

Ergo, like I said, an official parser is not a need. It's a want.

To insist it's needed is really pretty silly at this point. It's like someone at a track saying "to clear these hurdles, we need to know exactly how high we have to jump", meanwhile, people are behind them, doing trial attempts, and ultimately clearing them... without knowing the exact height ahead of time.

In the meantime... just call an official in-game parser what it is. It's a want. It's not a need.

[Malevicton]

snip

You can use it for more than just knowing the dps check on the hard enrage.

I reacted to the mechanic is X way, and got Y. Then I tried it in Z way and got Y+1. There are also non-enrage dps checks, like add phases or the split hands in as3. Parsers also give info to healers and tanks, like how much a tether in as3 can hit for.

Sure, not a need. It's a want. But so what? You don't need a lot of things in game. I don't see people popping into Hildibrand threads and talking about how we shouldn't have it because it's not technically necessary.

[Aoxaviar]

I personally have to agree with the 2nd option put up by the original posts comment.

A training area with a striking dummy, or several striking dummies (for AOE related spells and affects, so we would know just how effective they are) would be a great thing. I am also really excited about the fact that SE and Yoshi-P have said they are making a "Training Area" for this.

Thoughts - Solo access:
1. "Training Area" by SE - best guess is that we will see the Galdiator's stadium open up for this and we will be able to spare against an NPC or series of them (good way to test a battle arena mechanics for the gold saucer too!) this could also be expanded so that 4 players or 8 players can match wits against past bosses (or even extreme primals) for teaching battle mechs to new FC players.

2. Adding to each of the City-states a instanted area where we could access the same content, but the room/dojo will be more like how the Inn Rooms change between each city-state.

Thoughts - Free Company Access:
1. Personal Favorite - Remove 1 or several private rooms in the FC housing and provide the FC with a Dojo / Training Room which is accessible by up to 8 FC members for a 4 on 4 training session or can be singled out and a player can spare against dummies, or even past bosses.

2. Limitation on the above - FC's who own more than one home, would only be able to build 1 training room.

Additional Thoughts:
A. Additional Storage - I know that it seems like SE has decided that more retainers is the anwser, but why haven't they decided to remove 10 private rooms from FC housing and change them into 1 FC store room?

B. Or take the 10 private rooms, and then provide the FC with a storeroom made from 5 of them, and provide an instant storeroom for solo players accessible from a warehouse location in either 1 or all the city-states?

I would think that with how long housing has been running, and being able to take a scope of what is going on with it and all of its mechanics across all of the servers, SE should be able to find some originally allocated space that is not being used (or even touched in some cases - my FC, I am the only holder of a private room.)

Since it seems like SE's Dev team is starting to get real with some of the fringe problems (like Parsing which would allow us to be able to max how we use each class/job) I think its time they also either come clean, or serious discuss housing and the expansion of it going forward.

I saw it during my run through The Rising, and noticed that MrHappy during is broadcast of it, totally missed it (but he also missed all of what the talk bubble NPCs had to say) coming from who MrHappy believes is the CEO of SE:

"I hear you've found some new housing." (Direct Quote from game on the 18th Floor at 09-07-2011 at 2:15am)

I know that we can't totally take everything as Biblical truth from this, but it does make me wonder why a Machinist with a gun in Yoshi-san's 18 floor office would mention "found some new housing" but be really dry with the comment.

I wonder if it means we can sell off private housing rooms? Who knows.

[Colorful]

snip

You're really grasping at straws here.

No, they didn't know how much DPS was required correctly, but you know what they did know? The most optimal rotation to maximize DPS, who was doing what amount of DPS (the weak links could improve on their skill, or be replaced), the best combination of gear they could use to maximize DPS in that encounter, etc. I see people suggesting that you don't need a parser to perform the optimal rotation, and that's right, but how do you think those optimal rotations are figured out? How are you supposed to know if you're doing it properly? There's more to it than knowing the amount of DPS an encounter requires.

A parser is something people want, but in high end content it does become a need. Why do you think almost all skilled raiding groups use it? And if we're on the topic of wanting and needing things, we don't need almost anything that's been added for convenience in this game, are they nice to have? Yes, most definitely. I can't understand why you can't see that.

[Syrehn]

Seems to me that, as we get further and further into the game's life-cycle, and more and more content - including the most extreme - is being cleared without need of an official parser to do so, that the idea of one being necessary becomes less and less convincing, while the idea of one - for anything other than purely personal training/tracking purposes - seems more and more redundant.

The player base has proven, and continues to prove,that it doesn't need a DPS meter to complete content. To try and argue that it does is really pretty silly. It's a 'want', at best. It's definitely not a "need".

You are deluding yourself if you believe that the most extreme content is being cleared without a parser. No dedicated progression team worth their salt would be working on the most extreme content without one.

While I don't necessarily agree with putting a parser into story mode/duty finder dungeon content I absolutely believe it should be available as an optional official tool for raid content.

[Ryel]

Seems to me that, as we get further and further into the game's life-cycle, and more and more content - including the most extreme - is being cleared without need of an official parser to do so, that the idea of one being necessary becomes less and less convincing, while the idea of one - for anything other than purely personal training/tracking purposes - seems more and more redundant.

Even if this were true (it isn't) any player that looks up BiS guides for gear stats, optimal rotations for their job, or even battle strategy and encounter guides for tackling content is indirectly benefiting from the results of someone using a parser, in fact you can go as far as to say that the job forums on this very site probably wouldn't hold any worthwhile (debatable) information at all if it weren't for the testing and posts of players who are using parse programs, which has been the case in pretty much every MMO since the concept of beating on monsters with weapons.

To insist it's needed is really pretty silly at this point. It's like someone at a track saying "to clear these hurdles, we need to know exactly how high we have to jump", meanwhile, people are behind them, doing trial attempts, and ultimately clearing them... without knowing the exact height ahead of time.

Actually it's more like someone on a track team trying to improve for the hundred meter dash, asking their coach for their run time and getting shrugged shoulders as a response because they neglected to bring a stopwatch.

It's only needed when theres a benchmark of performance that needs to be met, coincidentally a large number of endgame encounters have strict DPS checks that expect you to meet that level of performance.