Parsers and Problems

[dank1]

What is this strange perception that a parser is 'necessary'? Just play the game and learn your rotation. Saying a parser is necessary is like saying Guitar Hero is necessary to learn guitar. Simply LEARN the rotation. Use your EYES. Play the game. A lot. You will learn and build upon your rotation, and a parser wont help you do that, its something that is intuitive, and comes to you as you play your job more.

Who says its necessary?
As others have said, it's a tool.

We all know its not necessary considering all the casuals clear content without it, but trust me when it comes down to raid content EVERYONE uses it.

Personally I don't care if we get one or not, I already have one, I'm just here to discuss and point out flawed the nay sayer's mentalities are.
Would it improve my overall quality of life in game when I'm pugging? Definitely.
Dps can only benefit from this tool, those who wont are the ones who dont care to begin with.

[Preypacer]

Seems to me that, as we get further and further into the game's life-cycle, and more and more content - including the most extreme - is being cleared without need of an official parser to do so, that the idea of one being necessary becomes less and less convincing, while the idea of one - for anything other than purely personal training/tracking purposes - seems more and more redundant.

The player base has proven, and continues to prove,that it doesn't need a DPS meter to complete content. To try and argue that it does is really pretty silly. It's a 'want', at best. It's definitely not a "need".

However, any such implementation should remain purely for personal information. A player should be able to see their own scores, with perhaps a comparison to the average or top numbers currently on record for any given content. This way, if the individual wishes to refer to that data for their own use... they can. If they wish to ignore it because they're doing just fine even without it (as we all have been since 2.0 launched, unofficial parsers notwithstanding).

If an individual wishes to share their parsed data, cool, they can. But it's their choice to make. The choice isn't made for them.

Making all people's parser data publicly viewable, for all others to see, especially in a group situation (across all content) is just asking for trouble. For people who are prone to being a-holes to everyone else already, you're just giving them more ammunition to do so with.

And let no one kid themselves... This does happen, and has happened, in every MMO to ever release, for well over a decade now. So long as there are people who have this "need" to divide the player base into "us against them", using any divisive means they can muster - and there many such people - you can guarantee they are going to be all over that should DPS stats be viewable to them.

Hell, even without that data, there are already people who will complain about others' performance, for nothing more than "this run is taking longer than it should" - even if bosses are being cleared, and no one's dying or running out of MP, etc. I've specifically had that happen in many of my parties... including pre-50 content. Giving these people actual numbers to work with is just pouring fuel into the fire.

Yoshi-P is aware of this. He knows how people in the MMO space can be. I believe that's why he's so reticent and guarded about implementing such a feature, and so cautious in how it's implemented. And he has the right of it.

So, implement a DPS meter that's entirely for private use, for private viewing and reference, and leave it at that. Many have argued it's solely for personal growth and improvement, so that's fine... leave it as such. Don't make such a thing publicly viewable.

[Colorful]

snip

The most extreme content is not being cleared without the use of parsers, unless you believe that dungeons are the most extreme form of content? Most, if not all serious raid groups parse. That's how they recruit DPS (not only parse numbers of course, but their ability to deal with mechanics). They don't use an official parser because that's not an option as of now, but I'm sure console players would absolutely love access to a parser. I think they should implement a public parser for Extreme & Savage content, other content doesn't need it.

Regardless of all that, a parser that's allowed by the game rules will happen with the addon API is implemented as I've stated earlier, and it will be available for use in all content. Harassment still won't be allowed, and you will be reported for doing so, now and then.

[Syrehn]

Seems to me that, as we get further and further into the game's life-cycle, and more and more content - including the most extreme - is being cleared without need of an official parser to do so, that the idea of one being necessary becomes less and less convincing, while the idea of one - for anything other than purely personal training/tracking purposes - seems more and more redundant.

The player base has proven, and continues to prove,that it doesn't need a DPS meter to complete content. To try and argue that it does is really pretty silly. It's a 'want', at best. It's definitely not a "need".

You are deluding yourself if you believe that the most extreme content is being cleared without a parser. No dedicated progression team worth their salt would be working on the most extreme content without one.

While I don't necessarily agree with putting a parser into story mode/duty finder dungeon content I absolutely believe it should be available as an optional official tool for raid content.

[Preypacer]

The most extreme content is not being cleared the use of parsers, unless you believe that dungeons are the most extreme form of content? Most, if not all serious raid groups parse. That's how they recruit DPS (not only parse numbers of course, but their ability to deal with mechanics). They don't use an official parser because that's not an option as of now, but I'm sure console players would absolutely love access to a parser. I think they should implement a public parser for Extreme & Savage content, other content doesn't need it.

Regardless of all that, a parser that's allowed by the game rules will happen with the addon API is implemented as I've stated earlier, and it will be available for use in all content. Harassment still won't be allowed, and you will be reported for doing so, now and then.

There's a parser in use, but answer me this... Until the fight was cleared, did anyone know what DPS (or healing, etc) was required to do so?

No, they didn't.

That information can only be attained by actually clearing the fight (possibly multiple times, to allow for margins of error or whatever) and then looking at what everyone's numbers look like.

Yet, it was cleared... without any such data to rely on or compare to.

People have learned how to clear the content, through practice and persistence. Not through relying on parser data.

Ergo, like I said, an official parser is not a need. It's a want.

To insist it's needed is really pretty silly at this point. It's like someone at a track saying "to clear these hurdles, we need to know exactly how high we have to jump", meanwhile, people are behind them, doing trial attempts, and ultimately clearing them... without knowing the exact height ahead of time.

In the meantime... just call an official in-game parser what it is. It's a want. It's not a need.

[Ryel]

Seems to me that, as we get further and further into the game's life-cycle, and more and more content - including the most extreme - is being cleared without need of an official parser to do so, that the idea of one being necessary becomes less and less convincing, while the idea of one - for anything other than purely personal training/tracking purposes - seems more and more redundant.

Even if this were true (it isn't) any player that looks up BiS guides for gear stats, optimal rotations for their job, or even battle strategy and encounter guides for tackling content is indirectly benefiting from the results of someone using a parser, in fact you can go as far as to say that the job forums on this very site probably wouldn't hold any worthwhile (debatable) information at all if it weren't for the testing and posts of players who are using parse programs, which has been the case in pretty much every MMO since the concept of beating on monsters with weapons.

To insist it's needed is really pretty silly at this point. It's like someone at a track saying "to clear these hurdles, we need to know exactly how high we have to jump", meanwhile, people are behind them, doing trial attempts, and ultimately clearing them... without knowing the exact height ahead of time.

Actually it's more like someone on a track team trying to improve for the hundred meter dash, asking their coach for their run time and getting shrugged shoulders as a response because they neglected to bring a stopwatch.

It's only needed when theres a benchmark of performance that needs to be met, coincidentally a large number of endgame encounters have strict DPS checks that expect you to meet that level of performance.

[Malevicton]

snip

You can use it for more than just knowing the dps check on the hard enrage.

I reacted to the mechanic is X way, and got Y. Then I tried it in Z way and got Y+1. There are also non-enrage dps checks, like add phases or the split hands in as3. Parsers also give info to healers and tanks, like how much a tether in as3 can hit for.

Sure, not a need. It's a want. But so what? You don't need a lot of things in game. I don't see people popping into Hildibrand threads and talking about how we shouldn't have it because it's not technically necessary.

[Colorful]

snip

You're really grasping at straws here.

No, they didn't know how much DPS was required correctly, but you know what they did know? The most optimal rotation to maximize DPS, who was doing what amount of DPS (the weak links could improve on their skill, or be replaced), the best combination of gear they could use to maximize DPS in that encounter, etc. I see people suggesting that you don't need a parser to perform the optimal rotation, and that's right, but how do you think those optimal rotations are figured out? How are you supposed to know if you're doing it properly? There's more to it than knowing the amount of DPS an encounter requires.

A parser is something people want, but in high end content it does become a need. Why do you think almost all skilled raiding groups use it? And if we're on the topic of wanting and needing things, we don't need almost anything that's been added for convenience in this game, are they nice to have? Yes, most definitely. I can't understand why you can't see that.

[Ashkendor]

What is this strange perception that a parser is 'necessary'? Just play the game and learn your rotation. Saying a parser is necessary is like saying Guitar Hero is necessary to learn guitar. Simply LEARN the rotation. Use your EYES. Play the game. A lot. You will learn and build upon your rotation, and a parser wont help you do that, its something that is intuitive, and comes to you as you play your job more.

I don't think anyone's come out and said that a parser is necessary. Plenty of people have said that it's a useful tool, though. People that use parsers are generally the type of people that like having more information about things. Our character stats grow and change, and it's much easier to make adjustments to your rotation (and know if those adjustments are beneficial) if you can parse the damage you're doing. It can help you with equipment as well, as far as choosing which secondary stats are most beneficial. Do you think the optimal rotation was just suddenly a thing that everyone knew how to do? People most likely sat there for hours with parsers going over different rotations and seeing which was the best for them.

[AureliusC]

i think its amazing howmany people only look for the bad in this. DCUO had one in its game. it was essentially like what pvp has, it shows total dmg in and out for every person, healing in and out, etc

yes people got kicked for being too low, and i saw it happen but 8/10 times the group tried to remedy the problem before they kicked said person.
i truly see no reason not to have something in the game that useful. to me its like not showing health bars because "someone will be kicked for being hit too much" or something that nonsensical.

eliteists will kick people yes. but 70% of them already have parsers, and already kick underperforming people because none else can refute what they say because only they can see the supposed parse.

if youre underperforming, then find someone that knows what theyre doingand see if they will help you figure out a better rotation. or use this magical thing that youre using right now to look your class up and see if theres a better way