Parsers and Problems

[Ashkendor]

first off parsers are good and bad. i like the personal parser idea. but dont like group because people tell you ur not doing enough dps in fights. imo dps is over rated just like rotations. just cause one person found optimal rotation doesnt meane very single person has to be able to do it thats crap. like blm i cannot no matter what i do stay above 1k on dummy. and i was i 191. also i do not like that people get kicked from certain dungeons just cause they dont remover totems from the circle who cares if u gotta killa few. i report everytime i get kicked for abuse.

Would you kick a tank that couldn't keep hate and let the mobs run all over killing people? Would you kick a healer that didn't keep people's hp above zero? Why should DPS get to hakuna matata their way through dungeons mashing 4 keys and completely ignoring mechanics? I mean, as a tank or a healer I'll go remove totems from the circle for the DPS so they can keep doing their job, but if I'm doing more damage than they are then I should have every right to leave them to pick up their own. Honestly, in that case they should be picking up mine too. :P

Everyone should be reasonably expected to follow dungeon mechanics. Not doing so is basically thumbing your nose at the other three people stuck with you in the dungeon and telling them you don't give enough of a crap about their time to even do things properly. I'm not talking about messing up here - everyone messes up sometimes - but blatantly ignoring mechanics over and over again will just get you a (well-earned) vote kick. There's nothing abusive about it. You're not pulling your weight. You're making the dungeon take longer, and just generally implying that you're too lazy to do much more than queue, accept, and set yourself to "follow" in the first room. I queue so that I can get my daily tomes, not so I can carry other people for theirs while they play with their phone or watch tv.

I don't think my expectations are at all out of line here. I don't expect people to be perfect. I don't expect everyone I run into to put out Savage-quality damage. What I do expect is that people will at least put forth a modicum of effort to make clearing the dungeon a reasonable proposition. If they don't, then they get the Weakest Link treatment. I have yet to be talked to by a GM about "abusing" the vote kick system this way, but if I was I would have no problem telling the GM exactly why the player was removed from the dungeon. If you're going to be kicking back and expecting the other three people to carry your dead weight, don't bother queueing.

[ShaneDawn]

imo dps is over rated just like rotations.

Tbh, dps is only overrated in runs where it's obsolete, like dungeons. But put up a dps check, along with mechanics, and it becomes a completely different beast. People always keep whining about dps checks, but in reality, dancing around the mechanics is just as overrated. The real difficulty of the fights is neither the dps check or the mechanics alone, but maintaining great dps while executing complex mechanics. That's what separates a great player from an average one.

I think content that has forced dps checks should have a party-wide parser, or at least an option for it. Everywhere else a personal parser would be the best solution for personal evaluation.

[ShaneDawn]

And a side note; not using optimal rotations is just laziness, as anyone should be able to google them in 5mins.

[Pruviant]

Parsers can be a fantastic tool to shed some light on where the party as a whole can improve. I for one would welcome the addition of one to the game. That being said, there will always be people that are a-holes about it, but that can be said about anything, even the game itself.

On the "omg these elitists kicked me because they said I wasn't doing enough dps" note, you have to be under-performing pretty badly to get kicked because your numbers are low. I have yet to see it in things below Alex normal, but in the endgame stuff, if you are a detriment to the group you *should* be replaced because at that point you are wasting 7 other peoples' time since you obviously aren't prepared. (I say that from a job knowledge standpoint, not a mechanics one)

[Preypacer]

Seems to me that, as we get further and further into the game's life-cycle, and more and more content - including the most extreme - is being cleared without need of an official parser to do so, that the idea of one being necessary becomes less and less convincing, while the idea of one - for anything other than purely personal training/tracking purposes - seems more and more redundant.

The player base has proven, and continues to prove,that it doesn't need a DPS meter to complete content. To try and argue that it does is really pretty silly. It's a 'want', at best. It's definitely not a "need".

However, any such implementation should remain purely for personal information. A player should be able to see their own scores, with perhaps a comparison to the average or top numbers currently on record for any given content. This way, if the individual wishes to refer to that data for their own use... they can. If they wish to ignore it because they're doing just fine even without it (as we all have been since 2.0 launched, unofficial parsers notwithstanding).

If an individual wishes to share their parsed data, cool, they can. But it's their choice to make. The choice isn't made for them.

Making all people's parser data publicly viewable, for all others to see, especially in a group situation (across all content) is just asking for trouble. For people who are prone to being a-holes to everyone else already, you're just giving them more ammunition to do so with.

And let no one kid themselves... This does happen, and has happened, in every MMO to ever release, for well over a decade now. So long as there are people who have this "need" to divide the player base into "us against them", using any divisive means they can muster - and there many such people - you can guarantee they are going to be all over that should DPS stats be viewable to them.

Hell, even without that data, there are already people who will complain about others' performance, for nothing more than "this run is taking longer than it should" - even if bosses are being cleared, and no one's dying or running out of MP, etc. I've specifically had that happen in many of my parties... including pre-50 content. Giving these people actual numbers to work with is just pouring fuel into the fire.

Yoshi-P is aware of this. He knows how people in the MMO space can be. I believe that's why he's so reticent and guarded about implementing such a feature, and so cautious in how it's implemented. And he has the right of it.

So, implement a DPS meter that's entirely for private use, for private viewing and reference, and leave it at that. Many have argued it's solely for personal growth and improvement, so that's fine... leave it as such. Don't make such a thing publicly viewable.

[Colorful]

snip

The most extreme content is not being cleared without the use of parsers, unless you believe that dungeons are the most extreme form of content? Most, if not all serious raid groups parse. That's how they recruit DPS (not only parse numbers of course, but their ability to deal with mechanics). They don't use an official parser because that's not an option as of now, but I'm sure console players would absolutely love access to a parser. I think they should implement a public parser for Extreme & Savage content, other content doesn't need it.

Regardless of all that, a parser that's allowed by the game rules will happen with the addon API is implemented as I've stated earlier, and it will be available for use in all content. Harassment still won't be allowed, and you will be reported for doing so, now and then.

[Preypacer]

The most extreme content is not being cleared the use of parsers, unless you believe that dungeons are the most extreme form of content? Most, if not all serious raid groups parse. That's how they recruit DPS (not only parse numbers of course, but their ability to deal with mechanics). They don't use an official parser because that's not an option as of now, but I'm sure console players would absolutely love access to a parser. I think they should implement a public parser for Extreme & Savage content, other content doesn't need it.

Regardless of all that, a parser that's allowed by the game rules will happen with the addon API is implemented as I've stated earlier, and it will be available for use in all content. Harassment still won't be allowed, and you will be reported for doing so, now and then.

There's a parser in use, but answer me this... Until the fight was cleared, did anyone know what DPS (or healing, etc) was required to do so?

No, they didn't.

That information can only be attained by actually clearing the fight (possibly multiple times, to allow for margins of error or whatever) and then looking at what everyone's numbers look like.

Yet, it was cleared... without any such data to rely on or compare to.

People have learned how to clear the content, through practice and persistence. Not through relying on parser data.

Ergo, like I said, an official parser is not a need. It's a want.

To insist it's needed is really pretty silly at this point. It's like someone at a track saying "to clear these hurdles, we need to know exactly how high we have to jump", meanwhile, people are behind them, doing trial attempts, and ultimately clearing them... without knowing the exact height ahead of time.

In the meantime... just call an official in-game parser what it is. It's a want. It's not a need.

[Malevicton]

snip

You can use it for more than just knowing the dps check on the hard enrage.

I reacted to the mechanic is X way, and got Y. Then I tried it in Z way and got Y+1. There are also non-enrage dps checks, like add phases or the split hands in as3. Parsers also give info to healers and tanks, like how much a tether in as3 can hit for.

Sure, not a need. It's a want. But so what? You don't need a lot of things in game. I don't see people popping into Hildibrand threads and talking about how we shouldn't have it because it's not technically necessary.

[Aoxaviar]

I personally have to agree with the 2nd option put up by the original posts comment.

A training area with a striking dummy, or several striking dummies (for AOE related spells and affects, so we would know just how effective they are) would be a great thing. I am also really excited about the fact that SE and Yoshi-P have said they are making a "Training Area" for this.

Thoughts - Solo access:
1. "Training Area" by SE - best guess is that we will see the Galdiator's stadium open up for this and we will be able to spare against an NPC or series of them (good way to test a battle arena mechanics for the gold saucer too!) this could also be expanded so that 4 players or 8 players can match wits against past bosses (or even extreme primals) for teaching battle mechs to new FC players.

2. Adding to each of the City-states a instanted area where we could access the same content, but the room/dojo will be more like how the Inn Rooms change between each city-state.

Thoughts - Free Company Access:
1. Personal Favorite - Remove 1 or several private rooms in the FC housing and provide the FC with a Dojo / Training Room which is accessible by up to 8 FC members for a 4 on 4 training session or can be singled out and a player can spare against dummies, or even past bosses.

2. Limitation on the above - FC's who own more than one home, would only be able to build 1 training room.

Additional Thoughts:
A. Additional Storage - I know that it seems like SE has decided that more retainers is the anwser, but why haven't they decided to remove 10 private rooms from FC housing and change them into 1 FC store room?

B. Or take the 10 private rooms, and then provide the FC with a storeroom made from 5 of them, and provide an instant storeroom for solo players accessible from a warehouse location in either 1 or all the city-states?

I would think that with how long housing has been running, and being able to take a scope of what is going on with it and all of its mechanics across all of the servers, SE should be able to find some originally allocated space that is not being used (or even touched in some cases - my FC, I am the only holder of a private room.)

Since it seems like SE's Dev team is starting to get real with some of the fringe problems (like Parsing which would allow us to be able to max how we use each class/job) I think its time they also either come clean, or serious discuss housing and the expansion of it going forward.

I saw it during my run through The Rising, and noticed that MrHappy during is broadcast of it, totally missed it (but he also missed all of what the talk bubble NPCs had to say) coming from who MrHappy believes is the CEO of SE:

"I hear you've found some new housing." (Direct Quote from game on the 18th Floor at 09-07-2011 at 2:15am)

I know that we can't totally take everything as Biblical truth from this, but it does make me wonder why a Machinist with a gun in Yoshi-san's 18 floor office would mention "found some new housing" but be really dry with the comment.

I wonder if it means we can sell off private housing rooms? Who knows.

[Colorful]

snip

You're really grasping at straws here.

No, they didn't know how much DPS was required correctly, but you know what they did know? The most optimal rotation to maximize DPS, who was doing what amount of DPS (the weak links could improve on their skill, or be replaced), the best combination of gear they could use to maximize DPS in that encounter, etc. I see people suggesting that you don't need a parser to perform the optimal rotation, and that's right, but how do you think those optimal rotations are figured out? How are you supposed to know if you're doing it properly? There's more to it than knowing the amount of DPS an encounter requires.

A parser is something people want, but in high end content it does become a need. Why do you think almost all skilled raiding groups use it? And if we're on the topic of wanting and needing things, we don't need almost anything that's been added for convenience in this game, are they nice to have? Yes, most definitely. I can't understand why you can't see that.