The Real Problem with Parsers

[TiaHeart]

No, actually I do agree with you. If they decide not to use the report feature - it is their choice. That's what is this all about

Hmm? I dont get it. Sure they have the choice to report. But the majority of those getting harassed are the people that arent tight-buttcheeks-tryhards who will make the efforts. Thats normal and has to expected, so the correct course of action from devside is to prevent harassment of those making little efforts and ask the others to make big efforts if they plan to harass someone via global parser. I dont think we agree here. Choices are good for those who care to invest, not those who dont.

The longer...

Use pf. Dont ask for a global parser in sastasha. Let the newbs try to improve via personal parser. I dont see it

That's how much i believe in this community.

Ok, well I... Dont lol

[TiaHeart]

I love casuals, I even consider myself to be a casual. But casual doesn't mean that you shouldn't do your part of the work. You are mixing two things.

Which two things? Casuals are people that enjoy the game and takeit easy. They start as full fledged scrubs and go 0 to 90% depending on how experienced they are. They dont watch guides all day, or copy perfect rotations. Thats why they would appreciate personal parsers, many are on console. They get better by playing the game, but never reach 100%, unlike the typical reddit pc parser type of player, who doesnt "play" the game but actually "studies" it. Is there a dictionary for this word? Im not a native speaker lol

And casual indeed doesnt mean they dont do their part of work. Not in dngs, but they have trouble with the newest top tier raids. Thats my point all day. 95 percent content = aimed at casuals. 5 % = aimed towards raiders (NOT casual, or only a veery little part of all casuals can) . However, global parser wasnt ever a thing for "getting your part of work" done in the 95 percent content. You simply ask ppl to do MORE than their part of the work if you feel the need for parsers EVERYWHERE. Or meet horrible ppl in dngs.

PS: I cant remember when Ive had to kick someone for anything other than "offline/dc" in a normal dungeon 0 to 60 or disband cuz i didnt see the party getting there. Worst was a grp when i healed library with 5 minutes left despite dpsing along heavily.

[Jamein]

Thats my point all day. 95 percent content = aimed at casuals. 5 % = aimed towards raiders (NOT casual, or only a veery little part of all casuals can) . However, global parser wasnt ever a thing for "getting your part of work" done in the 95 percent content.

Actually, this is my point for a parser to help people improve, 95% of the content in this game is absolute faceroll but it wasn't ALWAYS like that, we aren't allowed to have dungeons that require people to actually play their class. Since Pharos sirius and Demonwall and the bee's got nerfed, every new dungeon has been a complete snoozefest. Even steps of faith got a nerf. The game is faceroll because the average skill level in this game is trash. It honestly is and I am not asking for players to be captain elite blowing out 1.5k DPS in every dungeon, but the truth is the majority of players under perform by a HUGE amount. I mean we are talking people in eso gear in Alex normal pumping out in the range of 400-600 DPS and that is just god awful but there are also a HUGE amount of players who have no idea that they are under performing which is why a GLOBAL parser would actually show them how they perform against others, they can either choose to improve or ignore it. Up to them, but overall I'd like to think 1/5 would at least try to get better and that would in turn create a better community, and maybe, JUST MAYBE we can have some content that isn't mind numbing anymore.

As for people getting kicked due to numbers, in all my time playing I can count that on one hand and each of those occasions it has been in a raid like FCOB pre-echo (but after loot unlocks) where the DPS just wasn't enough and someone was CLEARLY not pulling their weight. Never have I seen anyone get kicked from dungeons or the majority of faceroll content and 99% of the people I play with use parsers.

Low DPS will be kicked as much as a bad tank or a bad healer is, simple as that. It doesn't happen often, most people just suck it up and get on with the run, only a few would actually care enough.

[TiaHeart]

Actually, this is my point...

And mine too. I just dont see how its good to hand a tool to everyone thats like "You do 700 dps the other dd 500. You are bard hes drg, he really should do better". I might care for my number ALWAYS but i dont care about his unless it actually becomes a REAL problem. Which most of the time doesnt apply. Only in content i use PF for anyway.
Next for dungeontalk: Hum i play since feb and dngs were always piss easy. Mustve been before my time. I agree they could be balanced tougher tho as said before. And maybe THEN you would need global parser.

Even steps of faith got a nerf

Lol. Isnt that mainstory stuff lockin out 90% of the players cuz 2 bad? If so of course they nerfed it, and very rightly so. Do you want to play your hw stuff alone or SE to lose money on ff14 and shut it down? Oo

[Jamein]

And mine too. I just dont see how its good to hand a tool to everyone thats like "You do 700 dps the other dd 500. You are bard hes drg, he really should do better". I might care for my number ALWAYS but i dont care about his unless it actually becomes a REAL problem. Which most of the time doesnt apply. Only in content i use PF for anyway.

You JUST said it yourself, no one cares about others DPS for the most part, the main use would be for SELF evaluation you're meant to look at it and judge yourself. I'm not saying other players won't look at your numbers but I am saying 90% of the time other players simply don't care about your numbers, that's the case for me I really don't care what other people in DF are doing the only time I use their numbers is to compare.

Next for dungeontalk: Hum i play since feb and dngs were always piss easy. Mustve been before my time. I agree they could be balanced tougher tho as said before. And maybe THEN you would need global parser.

We are going way back to when the game was first released (well re-released) demon wall was a DPS check with bee's that made people headbutt walls but it was a fun little challenge and forced people to get better, and they did. Same with PS that was no faceroll at first, they weren't 'hard' in a sense, they just required you to have a good grasp on the basics. However SE decided to nerf it instead and since then every single dungeon is nothing but boring faceroll content.

Lol. Isnt that mainstory stuff lockin out 90% of the players cuz 2 bad? If so of course they nerfed it, and very rightly so. Do you want to play your hw stuff alone or SE to lose money on ff14 and shut it down? Oo

It required minor brain power and the ability to read when NPC's shouted 'GO GET ON TEH CANNONS' but apparently that was deemed too hard for the playerbase (people created threads on the FIRST day it was released crying about it) and instead of forcing them to understand BASIC teamfight concepts, they just nerfed it and once again babysat the playerbase causing it to get progressively worse. Nerfing everything into oblivion only feeds the problem. Allowing people to actually see that they are doing poorly wouldn't magically fix everything overnight, but it damn sure couldn't hurt.

[Aiselia]

the truth is the majority of players under perform by a HUGE amount ... which is why a GLOBAL parser would actually show them how they perform against others, they can either choose to improve or ignore it.

You're defeating yourself.

If the majority of players underperform, then a majority of players will be paired with people who underperform. That skews any information you get from a party parser. If someone doing 600 sees someone doing 550, they see they're beating them. They have no incentive to get better. If someone doing 550 sees someone doing 600, they might think they're lower, but it's not that much so they're okay.

There are several criteria that MUST ALL be met for useful data from a party parse, if we operate under the assumption that the person needing the data doesn't already go outside the game to figure out what they should be doing.

1. Same or similar class.

A BRD/MCH that knows they do inherently less damage than a DRG but doesn't go outside the game already to know the actual margin may chalk up 200 to 300 DPS difference as class disparity. They would only know useful data if the other DPS also contains a BRD/MCH. But then we go down to....

2. Same or similar gear.

So that BRD/MCH sees another BRD/MCH in the party, and are being out-DPSed by 200 to 300, then checks their gear, sees that they have some 210 accessories while they only have some 190 pieces and maybe an Eso item or two. Without going outside the game, they don't know the actual difference in DPS they should be doing with relative gear. They could just chalk up the DPS difference as the other person having better gear. So they only have useful data if the other person is the same class in comparable gear. So now we go down to...

3. Superior skill from the OTHER person.

As I said before, if someone is doing 600 while another is doing 550, the person doing 600 thinks they're doing fine. If all they ever seem to get are people who do equal or lower DPS, even when they're also very sub-optimal, which according to you seems plausible because "the majority of players under perform by a HUGE amount", then they're not going to think they need to get better. They'll more likely get complacent in what they do, because they don't know they could do better. If they're relatively equal, that's no good unless both of them are already optimal, because they're going to think that's where they should be, corroborated by another person. If the other person is worse, they think they're doing great, even if they could do double their DPS. They only know they're too low if the other person is BETTER, and by a wide enough margin that they can't chalk it up to...

4. Same or similar situation.

This encompasses more than the other three criteria because there's several aspects to "situation" to consider.

A. Latency. No explanation really needed, I hope. If someone's lagging, they're expecting to do lower DPS.
B. Avoidance mechanics. BLMs objectively get more punished on, say, last boss of Neverreap than more mobile classes. Avoiding a tornado on a BLM is far more punishing to DPS than on a BRD, especially if the BRD is any good. Even a SMN is less punished by movement than a BLM because their DOTs are still ticking while they're moving and they can Ruin II while running. And thanks to the human brain's propensity to block out things happening to other people, they may get tossed by 5 tornadoes during the entire fight and think "Well, all the tornadoes were coming for me, so of course I did lower DPS. I kept getting tossed!" They may not notice that the other person got tossed 10 times. Similarly, if the boss does frequent melee-ranged AOEs but few ranged ones, the melee could chalk up DPS difference to melee being bad for that fight.
C. Other mechanics. Think of Alexander 1. Ranged do not have to move as much to hit an add to get it to the beam. Melee do. That's another way melee could feel punished. But what if a DPS decides to ignore mechanics to artificially inflate their numbers by not interrupting their DPS stream? This could be done because of tunnel vision and not even noticing the adds, or figuring someone else will take care of them, or because they're scared that if they look too low, they might get kicked. That not only makes the fight harder for everybody, but skews the numbers by making it look like another person did more DPS than others. There's also things like being quarantined in A4 which pulls you away from fighting for a while as you tumble, or the Sanuwas in Bismarck EX if it keeps making you swap colours while someone else may happen to always get the same colour.
D. Encounter size. If you're in a fight with a lot of adds, a class with lots of AOE will inflate DPS numbers if the parser isn't set to only show the boss. To use Bismarck EX again, there are plenty of mobs to fight in that... which makes it perfect for a SMN to inflate their numbers with their AOE. Any NIN or DRG will not be able to match that on adds, but may actually do way more on the Sanuwa or Bismarck's back (see point 1). Any mainly ST class will also do less on something like Alexander 2.
E. Mechanic failure. A4, nobody blocks lasers, someone gets rekt. They get ressed and now have lower stats. Their numbers will be obviously lower than they could be.

But sure, some parsers will show things like deaths or what you've gotten hit by (it's arguable whether SE would put in something that in-depth under the argument of console limitations) and whatever to help explain some of that, but that requires...

5. Ability to mentally parse the parser.

If someone can't look at their skills and figure out that Fire 3 spam is bad or that MNKs have positionals or what have you, can we expect them to be able to look at all the data from an in-depth parse and be able to understand what happened? Can we expect them to be willing to bother? Can we expect them to actually look through all the data to find that yes, they got hit by 5 tornadoes, but the other DPS got hit by 10? Or that they died once but another died twice and still beat them? What if someone got taken out of a fight halfway through so they couldn't be ressed (Died in quarantine, knocked off Titan platform or Levi EX boats)?

6. Depth of parser.

Of course, that's operating under the assumption that something in-depth gets put in, instead of a potentially simple "You did this much DPS in that combat encounter" so that PS3 players are better accommodated with less being tracked. The argument for how useful a parser would be is quite contingent on what SE does for a parser, and most people seem to assume that they'll just basically merge existing ones into the game itself.


tl;dr: Random duty finder groups are the furthest from a controlled situation you could get, which makes parse data range anywhere from possibly useful to completely irrelevant to potentially detrimental.

And that's all whether it's useful for any single person. There's a whole extra argument about whether it's good for a group or the community as a whole, like for example if someone gets killed in Quarantine so they can't be ressed but then the group wipes, who's going to be the first person looked at as a problem? The one that is at 300 DPS because they died, even if they could have done 1,000 if they survived. It goes under the mental ability to parse the data and figure out what actually happened. And bearing in mind the number of people who say "Well, this one time this guy mouthed off about low DPS but he was actually the lowest," these are the people you expect to be able to read the data and understand reasons rather than looking at simple numbers.

[Lastelli]

Lol. Isnt that mainstory stuff lockin out 90% of the players cuz 2 bad? If so of course they nerfed it, and very rightly so. Do you want to play your hw stuff alone or SE to lose money on ff14 and shut it down? Oo

You're just discriminating among different players here, assuming that casuals should have a higher weight when devs make their decision, which is disputable. An equilibrium must be found...and right now the average skill level is so pathetic that I can say with certainty that we haven't found it. True, casuals players must be able to enjoy the game, but hardcore gamers have the same right, so the game must have a progressive difficulty where lvl 60 dungeons are challenging and if you reach lvl 60 it means that you at least know how to use your job to some extent and more hardcore players shouldn't be afraid of using DF (I know I am). This can be done by introducing a parser or by making MSQ or job quests more difficult, I don't care, but devs must do something because the current state is just sad. And bad players must be made aware that they are bad, even if they don't want to improve, because this will allow them to realize that they do NOT have the right to join my party via PF if I write something like "high dps" or "exp players", but unfortunately they do it now...and this is exactly the reason why we need personal parsers + the option for the leader of the party in PF to enable a global parser. I'm assuming ofc that the introduction of a personal parser and the possibility of being excluded by (most) pugs will allow/force a lot of players to get good and increase the avg skill level to the benefit of everyone using the DF.

[Aiselia]

assuming that casuals should have a higher weight when devs make their decision, which is disputable.

The majority should have the higher weight because FFXIV is a product, not a charity. If the majority of the game can't handle higher difficulty and they ramp up the difficulty to where they can't enjoy it, they leave, SE makes less money, game dies, everyone loses.

Savage raids and Extreme trials are for the minority who want challenge and can clear it. The rest of the game is for the people who don't care about the challenge so they don't do the challenging things.

If you want difficulty, don't do the dungeons designed for the people who don't want difficulty.

Expert roulette and tomestones are designed so that the people who don't raid can still get decent gear. It would defeat its own purpose if you had to be raid-tier quality just to do it, because then you'd probably be raiding anyways.

[Bobkitty]

Outside of bosses with DPS checks, it's unlikely you'd get removed from a party for not hitting high enough. Now with unsync, you can even get away with it in 2.0 trials/raids if you know the mechanics.

[Gorlioliolio]

Since I've seen this whole "take the parse out of context" thing being repeated in the past 5 pages, combined with the support from the same people for a personal or dummy only parser let me try to lay this out for you.

IN WHAT WAY IS A DUMMY PARSE OR PERSONAL PARSE EVER GOING TO BE IN CONTEXT IF YOU HAVE NO ONE TO COMPARE IT TO.

The only way to gain the context is constantly going into DF with other dps, check their gear and see how they perform in relation to you. Pretty much everyone knows a bard/mch in equal gear will be pulling slightly less than other dps classes (honestly it isn't THAT much of a difference). So keeping that in mind people can use it to improve. I still stand by all my earlier statements, if someone in i200+ gear is pulling less dps than a fresh 60 they can gtfo of my group for wasting my time.