The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

IN WHAT WAY IS A DUMMY PARSE OR PERSONAL PARSE EVER GOING TO BE IN CONTEXT IF YOU HAVE NO ONE TO COMPARE IT TO.

Those that care to improve can find relevant numbers on the internet or ask others for useful information. Those that don't care will ignore it either way.

The only way to gain the context is constantly going into DF with other dps, check their gear and see how they perform in relation to you.

And if you can't guarantee that the other person is also playing optimally (which you can't or else this wouldn't be a big argument), then that context is worthless.

I mean, honestly, the whole argument that you need context in DF groups to improve is defeated by the same reasoning that a majority of players are low quality and do bad DPS. Either context in duty finder groups is important because you're being grouped consistently with people who ARE pulling good numbers, or the context in duty finder groups is unimportant because a majority of what you'll get are other bad players. Pick one. You can't have both.

(honestly it isn't THAT much of a difference)

Which not everybody knows. Especially if they don't already use the internet to know the correct numbers.

they can gtfo of my group for wasting my time.

They have as much a right to be in that group as you do if you used DF. You don't own the group. And if you ever tried to kick a DPS for pulling low numbers in a run I'm tanking, you'd shortly find yourself outside the dungeon.

[Archaell]

I mean, honestly, the whole argument that you need context in DF groups to improve is defeated by the same reasoning that a majority of players are low quality and do bad DPS. Either context in duty finder groups is important because you're being grouped consistently with people who ARE pulling good numbers, or the context in duty finder groups is unimportant because a majority of what you'll get are other bad players. Pick one. You can't have both.

I don't know how would you feel, but if I was doing 700 DPS while matched with players doing 400, I would feel really good about my performance (in case I wouldn't read forums and guides to have additional data)... until I would meet somebody doing 1000 DPS with the same job and gear. It doesn't matter if it would happen only once in blue moon, but the second I would see the difference I would be all around forums trying to figure out what could be done to get closer to the better guy.

If enough of players do this, then your average dps in DF must logically increase, which also means that more and more groups would expect the standard to be higher.

[Whiteroom]

Those that care to improve can find relevant numbers on the internet or ask others for useful information. Those that don't care will ignore it either way.

And if you can't guarantee that the other person is also playing optimally (which you can't or else this wouldn't be a big argument), then that context is worthless.

I mean, honestly, the whole argument that you need context in DF groups to improve is defeated by the same reasoning that a majority of players are low quality and do bad DPS. Either context in duty finder groups is important because you're being grouped consistently with people who ARE pulling good numbers, or the context in duty finder groups is unimportant because a majority of what you'll get are other bad players. Pick one. You can't have both.

What? I didn't realise people always got paired with the same groups!?
I mean really, your trolling is failing hard here.

[Aiselia]

I don't know how would you feel, but if I was doing 700 DPS while matched with players doing 400, I would feel really good about my performance (in case I wouldn't read forums and guides to have additional data)... until I would meet somebody doing 1000 DPS with the same job and gear. It doesn't matter if it would happen only once in blue moon, but the second I would see the difference I would be all around forums trying to figure out what could be done to get closer to the better guy.

That's you, though. You're already on the forums. I already look up guides on every single class I play so I at least have a general idea that I'm doing the right rotation. Not that I really need to for the most part since most of the time it's less looking rotations up and more confirming that my rotation is fine.


But what we'd do is irrelevant, isn't it? We're not the kind of person that needs to use a parser to know how to do your basic rotation, which are the people that a majority of pro-parsers want to get better, isn't that right? If someone's pulling 700 in an Expert Roulette, that's not optimal, but it's completely acceptable for the content. You don't need 1,000 DPS to clear it. But those aren't the ones that are the real "problems", are they?

The value of a parser is only as much as the person seeing the numbers puts on it. I'm still not saying that some people can't and won't use it to improve, just that those that will see they're doing better than the majority but less than a minority aren't necessarily going to feel a need to improve if they're not failing content.

What? I didn't realise people always got paired with the same groups!?
I mean really, your trolling is failing hard here.

Since you're just making things up that I didn't say anywhere in what you quoted, it's safer to say you're the one trolling.

That being said, considering how long people have been arguing against me, if I were trolling, that'd be an astounding success.

So you're kind of wrong either way.

[Whiteroom]

Since you're just making things up that I didn't say anywhere in what you quoted, it's safer to say you're the one trolling.

That being said, considering how long people have been arguing against me, if I were trolling, that'd be an astounding success.

So you're kind of wrong either way.

Meh, given that its all new people every few pages, its not really a success.
But your answer proved my point so...

[ShanaShirayuki]

This is not "too realistic" it is impossible. He plays at 70 percent me at 90 u at 95. Swe all have to be at 95 now, until sb steps in to show us 100? There are better players and worse, and always be. There are players thriving for more and those who are satisfied. Stay out of df, manage your friendlist, make illusional pfs. Just please stay out of my game. I wont EVER share your standards. I dont want to.

No one is making the point that everyone should be performing at maximum, impeccable play. Using your own terms, a DPS that is doing only 30% of maximum output is bringing the party down and is putting more workload on the other 3/7 members. They play the game too, it isn't just your game, and having others suffer at the expense of underperforming players is not right. Tanks and healers get called out and kicked for not holding aggro / letting people die, DPS should not get a free pass on performing suboptimally. Sure there are those that just don't care and won't listen to feedback, but I'm certain there are more people who would be receptive to said feedback if they were aware of their poor numbers in comparison to others.

As for the argument that parsers potentially turn everyone into raging jackasses who only do so to belittle and kick others, I'll leave this here since it was conveniently ignored:

The day and weeks to follow when mch dropped, the community hated this class and lots of people recieved abuse or were outright excluded from content due to job choice.

I myself had first hand experience of being called out in the early days of Alex normal when a wipe happened due to failed dps check.

A mnk immediately said kick the mch they are shit dps to whicha healer in the group said, you do realize this mch is 300dps above you?

Food for thought.

Non parser users are quick enough to point the finger without having any evidence to back it up.

[TiaHeart]

No one is making the point that everyone should be performing at maximum, impeccable play.

Yes he did, I dont know why you quote me for answering him and then go on by saying stuff thats unrelated. He said every single member of a group should care and invest the same. And i elaborated if im a guy happy with 80 percent play, he studies the game a bit more to stand at 90 and therefore expects me to do the same cuz of his mentality. And i said further now this lucretia pro joins whos almost 100 percent mentality. You cant expect to me care AS MUCH. Not as much as him. Not as much as the pro. Not for the overall game. I will care exactly as much as i want to, completely ignoring your standard. You can do it in your hardcore raid team for all i care, just not in the game in general. There will always be people to care less than you do and it actually is their right. Period. Reality. Check reality. He said he was too realistic and therefore shouldnt guide the game in a sarcastic tone. In fact you guys have your head in the clouds. Nice ambitions, noble cause, not saying your demands were evi by nature. They are just naive, and counterproductive to ff14, SE and their balance, and a community as big as possible. I was locked out for max posts yesterday, now I would be just as much as of a broken record to aiselia as you are to the other dude.

Its about money, its about as many players catered as possible, its about a majority of bad players, its about ppl like you -while maybe on the forum representing the majority because most do not make the effort/dont want to- actually being a minority in the game and for the product

Nobody said NONE of them cared. Some sure do. But imho yes the personal parser is better for them, for now. Also for the same reasons as aiselia wrote. No they do not want to be displayed with 350 dps to everyone else when tank does 500 other dd 800. No they do not need you to tell them "omg wtf u so bad bro". They need to see their own number being 350, and seing at the doll how it changes if they try different rotations. They need to see it in mobgroups, they need to see it on bosses, they need to see it while handling mechanics. They need to be able to ASK others their numbers and compare, they need to be able to ask where an ilvl 190 nin should ROUGHLY stand (yes we all know it isnt that simple. Please do not answer with a post on what the answer would depend on lol) or check for referances on the web. Thats the basic first step some people need and it wont have as many downsides as a global parser.

Actually, ive gotten a few parsers on rare occasions like bis ex rav ex a1s. They were all over the place ranging 600 to 980, but those 3 or 4 numbers simply told without having the ability to watch em evolve obviously doesnt help. Personal parser does.

Sure its EASIER and MORE EFFECTIVE with direct comparison via global parse, but first and foremost they need to know their own performance that only they will know so they dont have to fear embarassment, harassment and what not. They are easygoing and want to be pampered not abused, disrespected or talked down to. Denying these downsides exist for horribads is again, NOT realistic. Yes people get kicked for their performance. And all you people prove why so "its not fair that i have to carry more workload. Its not fair t n h get kicked when underperformin, dps needs the same treatment for fairness" -> you expect to be handed a tool comfortably For that destructive mindset? Pls nonono, its your idea of "fairness" and how you need to fight for that sort of fairness, why it shall NOT happen.

"Oh come on as if people would really ride on others for their numbers and performance if there were global parsers". You do it every second line of your posts and then say it wasnt a problem. Nuts. Bonkers. Cuckooo

[TiaHeart]

Using your own terms, a DPS that is doing only 30% of maximum output is bringing the party down and is putting more workload on the other 3/7 members.

and having others suffer at the expense of underperforming players is not right.

Tanks and healers get called out and kicked for not holding aggro / letting people die, DPS should not get a free pass on performing suboptimally

"As for the argument that parsers potentially turn everyone into raging jackasses who only do so to belittle others" - really? Really? Im out of here, pointless

[randysquirrel]

So last night I join a Bis Ex clear party. It's one of the four cards I still need so thought I'd give it a go. I saw it was a clear party, but thought I'd try anyway.

We get in, and someone says they have watched a vid and it is the exact same as HM, just things hit harder. Obviously I should've spoken up then, but thought I'd go one run and see how we get on. Early wipe to not even getting the carapace to maybe 30%. I speak up, explain the first phase is just two low adds to kill as normal trash, healz get the barrier when Bis lowers, and then DKs when they are up. That goes OK, but carapace still nowhere near one-shot. Next try, I explain dps need to step up and can hold their CDs for that specific point, and you need to be on Bis to damage it. BRD blows every CD immediately; EVERY CD, raging,quelling, hawkseye, swift foot (whatever its called) and IR. Not sure why as I just explained to hold them. Same again, don't meet dps check. Last try, I don't notice any obvious "mistakes" but we are still miles away from breaking the carapace. Everyone is in i170 gear minimum. I explain there is not really any more to say, it is just a dps check which for some reason we cannot meet. Disband.

tl:dr I have no idea who was not pulling their weight, clearly at least some weren't. I do not see how people can say a parser would not help in this situation

[Anze-chan]

I think I met more toxic bad dps players than friendly good dps players. Like in almost every dungeon, all them bad dps players complaining about how low the dps is meanwhile a lot of good players being very quiet and doing a proper carry to the whole group. It gets very funny sometimes how the bad dps complains and are completely unaware of the parses. Makes them look extremely stupid. If people are really feeling insecure about their dps and refuse to have an official parser to stay safe from all the "toxic behavior" then please get real. As for those who wanna slack and don't want fingers being pointed at them, I will just say, what goes around comes around.